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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:16 PM   #2021
Coccodrillo
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Yes, but on Lausanne-Bern more capacity is not as needed as on other lines. Between Lausanne and Fribourg there are just 2 IC per hour per direction, plus trains with intermediate stops that don't link these cities and wouldn't never run on a new line, as they have to make intermediate stops...
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:03 AM   #2022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
You are quite right, but sometimes building new railway line with better speeds may be only incrementally more expansive, than quadriple-tracking the existing one. So its a tricky question - sometimes you can have both for a reasonable price.
Absolutely, there are many examples of that, I will cite only two :

The first High Speed line in Europe, Paris-Lyon, was at its origin a project to
increase the capacity of the classic line between those two cities. It was
preferred over a 4-tracking operation of the classic line, which would have
been much more expensive, and would have brought only additional capacity,
but nothing better in terms of performance.

The high speed line between Leuven and Liège in Belgium is exactly the same
case. The inital need was more capacity (and a small speed increase), but a
new line was preferred over the 4-tracking of the existing line.

But in mountainous territory like in Switzerland, it would be difficult to predict
which version would be cheapest, without an extensive study.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #2023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Actually not. If the network is exploited almost at its maximum capacity, and
trains are full, it means that customers are happy enough with the service so
there is no reason to make it any faster. That's the application of the Lean
principle used in the industry : don't overdo things, don't over-deliver. If you
can sell all your capacity with the current service level, why enhance it ?

On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
case, capacity is more needed than speed...
But increased speed can create new markets where none exist.

Making a parallel with other industries: personal computer processing power, memory and data storage has been skyrocketing since the 1980s. Every time there is a leap, new applications are made viable. You wouldn't dare running HD videos on a Pentium 2. Excel spreadsheets would often crash if you tried to put millions of cells with data or dozens of thousands of complex formulas in a 1999 computer. Today, that is taken for given, even an entry-level laptop can deal with that reasonably.

The creation of early 20th century fast rail links (bringing speeds upt form the 70km/h that were common on 19th century railways to something around 120km/h) greatly increased overall demand for travel at the time as well.

So we shouldn't look only about existing demand, but repressed demand that will become statisfied with faster transportation options.

Theoretically, a railway that put Valais withing daily commuting time of Vaud would bring a boom to the valley, with many people moving further east and still retaining jobs on lakeshore cities. It would bring more real estate development and help spread out the population reducing housing costs.

Another of my wild theoretical ideas is turn one of the valleys (just one, not all) of the Bernese Oberland valleys into a big linear city, with mid-rises and a couple high-rises, accommodating up to 200.000 inhabitants in the shadow of pristine mountains. Maybe even with couple towers raising above lower mountains. They could use a fast train link to make this place an outpost for people working in Lausanne, Bern and even Basel, as long as proper rail links are in place. So one could live in the Alps and commute daily to a big city and return to fresh, treets and snowcapped mountains for the night.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #2024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Actually not. If the network is exploited almost at its maximum capacity, and
trains are full, it means that customers are happy enough with the service so
there is no reason to make it any faster. That's the application of the Lean
principle used in the industry : don't overdo things, don't over-deliver. If you
can sell all your capacity with the current service level, why enhance it ?

On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
case, capacity is more needed than speed...
But increased speed can create new markets where none exist.

Making a parallel with other industries: personal computer processing power, memory and data storage has been skyrocketing since the 1980s. Every time there is a leap, new applications are made viable. You wouldn't dare running HD videos on a Pentium 2. Excel spreadsheets would often crash if you tried to put millions of cells with data or dozens of thousands of complex formulas in a 1999 computer. Today, that is taken for given, even an entry-level laptop can deal with that reasonably.

The creation of early 20th century fast rail links (bringing speeds upt form the 70km/h that were common on 19th century railways to something around 120km/h) greatly increased overall demand for travel at the time as well.

So we shouldn't look only about existing demand, but repressed demand that will become statisfied with faster transportation options.

Theoretically, a railway that put Valais withing daily commuting time of Vaud would bring a boom to the valley, with many people moving further east and still retaining jobs on lakeshore cities. It would bring more real estate development and help spread out the population reducing housing costs.

Another of my wild theoretical ideas is turn one (just one, not all) of the Bernese Oberland valleys into a big linear city, with mid-rises and a couple high-rises, accommodating up to 200.000 inhabitants in the shadow of pristine mountains. Maybe even with couple towers raising above lower mountains. They could use a fast train link to make this place an outpost for people working in Luzern, Bern and even Basel, as long as proper rail links are in place. So one could live in the Alps and commute daily to a big city and return to fresh, treets and snowcapped mountains for the night.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #2025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Absolutely, there are many examples of that, I (...) But in mountainous territory like in Switzerland, it would be difficult to predict which version would be cheapest, without an extensive study.
There are actually quite a few examples in Switzerland as well. The new one from Bern to Olten for example. The Heitersberg tunnel.
And I think the idea of a new line from Geneva to Lausanne is worth considering as well.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #2026
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I would take them all. That’s crazy… Why should I a pick only one??? I’m talking about something global, when you’re playing petty politics. It’s an absolute nonsense to partition that national high-speed transverse route.
You can't have everything. Resources are limited. The money to build a complete new line from Geneve al the way to Lausanne is simply not there.
So one must prioritize projects. If you are unable to grasp that concept you really shouldn't take part in a discussion on infrastructure investment,
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Old September 10th, 2014, 03:50 PM   #2027
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
But increased speed can create new markets where none exist.
Indeed. Exploiting new markets. But when it doing this it would be unwise to neglect potential in existing markets...
Quote:
Theoretically, a railway that put Valais withing daily commuting time of Vaud would bring a boom to the valley, with many people moving further east and still retaining jobs on lakeshore cities. It would bring more real estate development and help spread out the population reducing housing costs. Another of my wild theoretical ideas is turn one (just one, not all) of the Bernese Oberland valleys into a big linear city, with mid-rises and a couple high-rises, accommodating up to 200.000 inhabitants in the shadow of pristine mountains. Maybe even with couple towers raising above lower mountains. They could use a fast train link to make this place an outpost for people working in Luzern, Bern and even Basel, as long as proper rail links are in place. So one could live in the Alps and commute daily to a big city and return to fresh, treets and snowcapped mountains for the night.
Spreading out the population is something the Swiss actually would like to see less off, not more. Your idea of creating a sleeping town in the Bernese Oberland is dead on arrival. The locals would not approve. You also should be aware that "commuting distance" in Switzerland means 20 minutes. What technology do you propose to bring for example Grindelwald within 20 minutes of Basel?
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Old September 10th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #2028
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20 min is too little, unless Switzerland is an oddity that wouldn't hold for general empiric research results, the attractiveness function of location x commute time starts to drop off sharply above 45-55, not 20 minutes. And there is still a residual market of people willing to travel more to live on better/cheaper places.

Switzerland has a lot of potential, if it builds a lot of housing, it can also attract a lot more people from abroad due to reduced pressure on wages, from the rest of EEA. Fast rail links would be essential on that strategy to bring 1.5 additional million qualified workers from EEA to CH in 3 decades or so, growing its population significantly and its economy even more.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #2029
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
20 min is too little, unless Switzerland is an oddity that wouldn't hold for general empiric research results, the attractiveness function of location x commute time starts to drop off sharply above 45-55, not 20 minutes.
Maybe that's why the Swiss are so happy. They don't have long commutes...

A friend om mine was transferred from London to Bern by her employer. When looking for a place to live she looked at places within an hour of Bern, and ended up on the banks of lake Thun. She lives in a very nice place and wonders why not more people working in Bern live there.
This might puzzle an outsider, but from the point of view of Bern commuter land ends in Thun, Biel, Fribourg and Herzogenbuchsee...
The Swiss aren't actually that mobile...

Quote:
And there is still a residual market of people willing to travel more to live on better/cheaper places.
"cheaper" signals "less attractive" when it comes to houses, not more attractive. Housing is more expensive in the cities because that's where people want to live. So the right policy here is to entourage more construction in the cities, not in the countryside.
And if a house with a garden in a green environment is what you're after (many Swiss are quite happy in an apartment though) you don't have to go that far out of town usually.

Quote:
Switzerland has a lot of potential, if it builds a lot of housing, it can also attract a lot more people from abroad due to reduced pressure on wages, from the rest of EEA. Fast rail links would be essential on that strategy to bring 1.5 additional million qualified workers from EEA to CH in 3 decades or so, growing its population significantly and its economy even more.
There are several problems with your proposals. One is that it's not what the Swiss want. They have voted for less immigration recently, not more. They have also voted in favour of less suburbanisation.
And in order to build the kind of infrastructure you propose Switzerland would have to raise taxes considerably which would kind of defeat the purpose of trying to attract more qualified workers through lower taxes... And it would be impossible anyway. It would get voted down.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #2030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Actually not. If the network is exploited almost at its maximum capacity, and
trains are full, it means that customers are happy enough with the service so
there is no reason to make it any faster. On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
case, capacity is more needed than speed...
If the trains are full, it doesn’t mean that people are happy with the offer. Instead, it potentially demonstrates that they don’t have a better option. And that doesn’t mean that the only choice they have is good. Only that it’s the only one.

If something is expensive, it doesn’t mean that it’s good. Instead, it potentially demonstrates that the company takes advantage of its monopolisitic situation, and/or creates the illusion that its product is of very good quality.

And so on…

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
That's the application of the Lean
principle used in the industry : don't overdo things, don't over-deliver. If you
can sell all your capacity with the current service level, why enhance it ?

On the other hand, if trains are full, it might mean that there could be more
capacity sold if it existed. Hence I agree with the conclusion of K : in this
case, capacity is more needed than speed...
This is only true from the company’s point of view. And as far as I know, we are all clients here, and do not represent SBB’s interests, but ours.

Last edited by quimporte; September 10th, 2014 at 07:32 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 07:07 PM   #2031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You can't have everything. Resources are limited. The money to build a complete new line from Geneve al the way to Lausanne is simply not there.
So one must prioritize projects. If you are unable to grasp that concept you really shouldn't take part in a discussion on infrastructure investment,
As I say, pedantic and arrogant.

"Resources are limited." How many times have you already repeated that? Is it the only concept you’re able to understand? Mr "I know everything", YOU are the only one that systematically swamps us with your financial paranoia. But if you want to do so, you should at least back up your assertions with reasons and data. But you never do, because you have no idead what you’re talking about. Pretending to understand doesn’t mean that you do.

While you’re stuck on pseudo investment issues, other people try to step outside the framework. That’s what I call a real debate and it’s much more interesting. The Federal Council will tell us in due time if that ******* high-speed line is affordable or not.

Last edited by quimporte; September 10th, 2014 at 07:34 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #2032
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It's off-topic again, but it's not true about Swiss predominantly living close to their place of employment. In may company lots of people commute between 30 min and 1 h. By anecdotal evidence I'd say a majority. About 2/3 drives and 1/3 takes a train (rural area).
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Old September 10th, 2014, 11:45 PM   #2033
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Even on places not meant for daily commutes, faster rail links could bring a lot of development

Graubuenden could flourish and prosper if RhB was left only for tourist traffic and modern rail links with long tunnels were built to bring the valleys closer to more populated areas. St Moritz could grow to be a place as large as Innsbruck for instance.
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Old September 11th, 2014, 12:36 PM   #2034
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I compared the car distance travelled per year per capita in Switzerland with the UK and Netherlands:

CH: 90 billion km/8 million residents = 11,250 km
NL: 137 billion km/16 million residents = 8,563 km
UK: 556 billion km/64 million residents = 8,683 km

(2011)

Sources:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...11/01/key.html
http://www.kimnet.nl/en/publication/...ty-report-2012
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...t-britain-2012

So the Swiss not only take the train more than anyone else but also drive a lot as well.

I posted the above on the Swiss Highways thread a few months ago and one response said that the Swiss are loyal to their particular area so if they get a new job far away, they prefer to commute rather than move house.
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Old September 11th, 2014, 01:40 PM   #2035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
I compared the car distance travelled per year per capita in Switzerland with the UK and Netherlands:

CH: 90 billion km/8 million residents = 11,250 km
NL: 137 billion km/16 million residents = 8,563 km
UK: 556 billion km/64 million residents = 8,683 km

(2011)

Sources:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...11/01/key.html
http://www.kimnet.nl/en/publication/...ty-report-2012
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...t-britain-2012

So the Swiss not only take the train more than anyone else but also drive a lot as well.
The statistics do include transit however, but the same applies to trains as well...
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Old September 11th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #2036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It's off-topic again, but it's not true about Swiss predominantly living close to their place of employment. In may company lots of people commute between 30 min and 1 h. By anecdotal evidence I'd say a majority. About 2/3 drives and 1/3 takes a train (rural area).
The average commute is 22 minutes in Switzerland. 4 out of 10 Swiss work in the same town/village as they live...
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Old September 11th, 2014, 01:58 PM   #2037
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As I say, pedantic and arrogant.
So telling you that you can't ignore reality is "pedantic" and "arrogant"?

Quote:
"Resources are limited." How many times have you already repeated that? Is it the only concept you’re able to understand?
I certainly appears to be a concept you have no grasp on.
That resources are limited is one of the most fundamental properties of the reality we live in. It is why we have economics and politics. It's why we work.

Quote:
Mr "I know everything", YOU are the only one that systematically swamps us with your financial paranoia. But if you want to do so, you should at least back up your assertions with reasons and data. But you never do, because you have no idead what you’re talking about. Pretending to understand doesn’t mean that you do.
Here you can see la list of all recently completed railway projects in Switzerland, as well as everythign that is planned for the near and far future. Including costs.
The funds to build everything on that list are simply not there. No use pretending it is otherwhise.

Quote:
While you’re stuck on pseudo investment issues, other people try to step outside the framework. That’s what I call a real debate and it’s much more interesting. The Federal Council will tell us in due time if that ******* high-speed line is affordable or not.
The Federal Council has clearly stated that capacity has priority over speed.

If you want to know how the Federal Council intends to spend money on railways you can read that for yourself:

http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04579/i..._JjKbNoKSn6A--
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Old September 11th, 2014, 02:11 PM   #2038
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The statistics do include transit however, but the same applies to trains as well...
How significant is transit? I would have thought that freight transit is pretty important, but transit for personal travel would be relatively small (for example, Germans driving to Italy).
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Old September 11th, 2014, 02:17 PM   #2039
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The Department of Transportation has an interesting document that describes the "reference concept" for the whole railway network for 2025. This includes the target timetable, and on the last page an interesting map showing how many paths for both passenger and freight trains are needed on the whole network.

You can find it here:

http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04579/i..._JjKbNoKSn6A--
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Old September 11th, 2014, 02:18 PM   #2040
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How significant is transit? I would have thought that freight transit is pretty important, but transit for personal travel would be relatively small (for example, Germans driving to Italy).
I don't know of hand, but one property of transit traffic is that it traverses the whole country, so this can amount to quite a few km...
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