daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 2nd, 2011, 12:31 PM   #201
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As I said, it was an april's joke. I partly belived it, because it's not completely false: SBB is really planning to sell or to scrap the ETR 470, but it is not known when it will do it (in around 7 years at the latest, but probably before). And the most likely buyer would be Trenitalia as it already owns similar vehicles, while SBB, DB, ÖBB (the other network who may be interested to 3-15 kV EMU) do not.

It was also said some months ago that Alstom may give some newly built ETR 610 for free to SBB and Trenitalia as penalty for the late delivery of the first 14 trains (they were planned to be all delivered by December 2007, but will not until the end of this year).
SBB is in the market for a few more trainsets for international traffic. Soon they'll be forced to run to Italy in open access anyway.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 2nd, 2011, 11:41 PM   #202
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

I don't know if SBB could run elsewhere in openaccess as the inverse (foreign openaccess passenger operators in Switzerland) is not possible (thankfully).

And, if possible, this would be problematic (Trenitalia would not then sell SBB tickets). Colalboration with Trenitalia is still the best solution, after all.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2011, 12:18 PM   #203
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,160
Likes (Received): 62785

The DB & ÖBB already operate the EuroCity from München - Brenner - Italy together with the FNM instead of the Trenitalia. If the SBB also finds an other partner in Italy or create their own Italian company they could also running in Italy as open access. The problem is that it will likely also effect other co-operations between the SBB and Trenitalia like the TILO.

But it will probably happen at some point in time since the relations between the 2 railways aren't getting any better. Now Trenitalia wants to pull out their ETR 610 sets from the former Cisalpino services to use them on internal services. That would only mean that they will still need the ETR 470 sets for a longer period. In other words, the SBB has to order more new trains if they want to improve the service.

The SBB has been looking into buying new tilting trains for quite some time now. Apart from the Italy services they would also be used on the new electrified services to München and also to be used internally to expand the ICN services. But it hasn't turned into a solid order yet, mostly because of the demands from the SBB. They wanted a 300 km/h fast train with a full tilting system. The railway industry has answered to the SBB that this is simply impossible. The bogies and trunks for a 300km/h train have to be very stiff, for a tilting train they have to be flexible. The problems with the ETR 610 have already highlighted this with a maximum speed of just 250 km/h.

This doesn't mean that there won't be a new order, but it will take another 4-5 years for the new trains to go in service if not later. Until then I don't expect that the SBB will go on and use the open access to go into Italy on their own. And maybe by then everything has already cleared up again so there won't be any need for this to happen.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2011, 12:46 PM   #204
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

In my opinion the ETR 470 will be retired in December 2011 and replaced by conventional trains which will use a modified temporary timetable (the existing one cannot be respected without tilting trains...and even with them it is quite rare trains arrive on time).

SBB needs Trenitalia mainly because of TILO (and viceversa Italy needs cooperation for its Varese-Como internal services which will pass throught Switzerland - just like the Salzburg-Innsbruck austrian intercitys pass throught Germany).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2011, 06:45 PM   #205
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,160
Likes (Received): 62785

The question is if the SBB has enough conventional cars to replace even more ETR 470 services with loco hauled trains. They can use the cars on the Vienna services that are replaced by Railjet sets, but they might need look towards Austria to hire some Austrian Eurofima cars for some extra capacity.

And with the whole open access happening right now in Europe we will see more competition between different railway companies. And that leads to some strange situations where railway companies compete with each other in some areas while cooperating in others.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:48 PM   #206
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

They will have to find them.

Starting from tomorrow, all the 16 daily Milan-Lugano-Gotthard-Zurich/Basel trains (except one) will be preceded by one IC train from Lugano onwards. The SBB are running some of these extra trains since the timetable structure change in December 2008 for capacity reasons (the ETR 470 are sometimes too small) and to avoid delays to more heavily used trains.


This is extremely costly, as some of these EC trains during off-peak hours aren't full, and would not need an extra IC, but this will have to run because of the frequent delays. Delays and extra trains aren't affordable on the long term, so I think there will be a new timetable in December with conventional trains instead of the ETR.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #207
Dase
Registered User
 
Dase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Moscow / Berlin
Posts: 514
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There is an hourly Swiss flight from Basel to Zürich, leaves at 40 minutes past each hour from ZDH... But that is a codeshare. I leave it to you to guess with whom...
There is still one daily flight to ZRH with an ARJ, leaving BSL in the morning and returning close to midnight.
Dase no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2011, 09:14 AM   #208
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't know if SBB could run elsewhere in openaccess as the inverse (foreign openaccess passenger operators in Switzerland) is not possible (thankfully).
Open access will come, and I doubt it will be bad for SBB.

Quote:
And, if possible, this would be problematic (Trenitalia would not then sell SBB tickets). Colalboration with Trenitalia is still the best solution, after all.
The problem is that Trenitalia is not very cooperative. See what happened in with Austria - Italy trains. ÖBB now even runs busses to Italy...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2011, 10:12 AM   #209
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Open access will come, and I doubt it will be bad for SBB.
It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.

Competition "for the market" would be little more acceptable, but I still don't see the point.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #210
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The problem is that Trenitalia is not very cooperative. See what happened in with Austria - Italy trains. ÖBB now even runs busses to Italy...
Even worse: ÖBB/DB have to run busses between Padova, Vicenza and Verona to connect those cities with their Venice-Munich ECs because they aren't allowed to stop the train running through the first two cities there in order to protect Trenitalias business.

It's not even possible to buy tickets for trains operated by other Italian companies on routes where there are no Trenitalia trains at a Trenitalia counter. When I went from Verona to Malles, I had to run to the ticket machine in Meran to buy a ticket there within the two minutes scheduled for changing trains. At least the Trenitalia website (which against all odds knows those connections as well) calculates that under normal circumstances, you wouldn't succeed to do so and calculates with one hour waiting time in Meran in the first place...
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #211
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.
In relation to that, the federal government plan new infrastructures together with their timetable, so as to maximize capacity but minimizing the cost.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2011, 12:12 PM   #212
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It will be bad, it will. There is too much demand on too much relations involving changing trains to make it possible.
I don't understand this. If there is "to much demand" how could other companies entering the market (and we're only talking international trains here) be bad?

Quote:
Competition "for the market" would be little more acceptable, but I still don't see the point.
the point is that you're not limited to whatever the incumbent is willing to offer. We're so used to the high level of service offered by SBB that we don't realize how it is elsewhere. But people in Switzerland also don't realize there might be a market for a cheaper, lower standard service. I often have a hard time explaining tourists that Geneve - Zürich is always 82,- CHF.
"What do you mean, you can't save money by taking slower trains or a bus?"
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #213
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

If SBB wants to operate more trains in Italy, it should allow Italian companies to operate more trains in Switzerland. Reciprocity FTW.

You can't have actual competition for international services if you only have trains that are operated by each national railway involved. That is how international train service was done in Europe until the first join-ventures like Thalys, Artesia, CityNightLine etc. were established, and it was an horrible service in general.

What appears to me is that SBB is very keen on avoiding as much international traffic as possible because it is a "hassle" to their "perfect" timetables. Then Italy have different, odd requirements like 2-person crews and an unhelpful operation management.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #214
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I don't understand this. If there is "to much demand" how could other companies entering the market (and we're only talking international trains here) be bad?
On some lines all available capacity is already used, and adding more trains would be impossible without new infrastructures unless...cancelling alredy existing and overcrowded trains. I doubt passengers would like that.

On a few lines there may be some free space for international trains...like Zürich-Milan, or Lausanne-Paris, but certainly not on Lausanne-Genève or Bern-Zürich on peak hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I often have a hard time explaining tourists that Geneve - Zürich is always 82,- CHF. "What do you mean, you can't save money by taking slower trains or a bus?"
I agree on that, it's a problem, SBB should make some offers on off peak trains, mainly for tourists (as for the same trip a local would pay 41 CHF, or 58/68 CHF for a return trip depending on the hour, nearly one third of a full fare return ticket).

I also think that it should be studied the possibility to allow intercity domestic buses, so as to relieve trains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If SBB wants to operate more trains in Italy, it should allow Italian companies to operate more trains in Switzerland. Reciprocity FTW.
First of all, Italy is doing everything is possible to sabotage competitors (Arenaways, DB-öBB, NTV, freight operators, ...).

Secondly, I would not like to see SBB operating trains in Italy, except for Chiasso/Domodossola-Milano. But also in this case I would prefer to see cooperation with Trenitalia.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #215
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
First of all, Italy is doing everything is possible to sabotage competitors (Arenaways, DB-öBB, NTV, freight operators, ...).

Secondly, I would not like to see SBB operating trains in Italy, except for Chiasso/Domodossola-Milano. But also in this case I would prefer to see cooperation with Trenitalia.
They couldn't even agree on how Cisalpino should be managed, to the point they broke up the joint-venture (your avatar is rather funny btw). I agree Trenitalia has some problems with accepting competition and part of its management is trying to undermine European agreements with red tape.

However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains. The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains, at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only.

Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 03:49 PM   #216
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
They couldn't even agree on how Cisalpino should be managed, to the point they broke up the joint-venture.
Cisalpino worked very bad, but without it there will be less coordination, so I don't know if its dissolution was a good idea.

Quote:
However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains.
What do you mean? TILO service is agreed with Regione Lombardia (like every regional service), and beside three return trips to Gallarate and Milano the only TILO services in Italy are the ones to Albate Camerlata (8 km and two stops in Italy).

Quote:
The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains...
Thankfully. But I think passenger trains (IC/EC/CIS) should if needed be slowed down a little to increase freight capacity which seems more important to me.

Quote:
...at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only.
Because nobody is willing to pay for 150 km of tunnels to be used only by one or two intercity per hour. An high speed line there would simply be too expensive at dozens of billions (either CHF or EUR that doesn't matter).

Quote:
Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.
SBB plans to offer at least 6 slots per hour per direction for freight trains in 2020 (to Luino and Chiasso, plus 3 slots to Domodossola), while there are doubts Italy will be capable of handling them because of capacity problems, lack of terminals and small loading gauge south of Bologna.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #217
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,973
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post


Thankfully. But I think passenger trains (IC/EC/CIS) should if needed be slowed down a little to increase freight capacity which seems more important to me.



Because nobody is willing to pay for 150 km of tunnels to be used only by one or two intercity per hour. An high speed line there would simply be too expensive at dozens of billions (either CHF or EUR that doesn't matter).
Is freight valuable enough to pay for brand new lines and long tunnels for exclusive use of freight (or for passenger trains only under schedules fitted to freight)?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #218
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

That's the point, neither freight nor passengers alone would be sufficient to make these tunnels worth the cost. It's a combination of both, plus political reasons (there are two new parallel north-south railways under construction so as to make happy more people, the new Gotthard rail tunnel would have never been accepted without the new Lötschebrg, and viceversa).

In any case public infrastructures (even motorways) don't have to be economically profitable, and the three plus one AlpTransit tunnels are not expected to pay for themselves quickly. But the already opened base tunnels (Lötschberg and Zimmerberg) already carry much traffic. Many other rail projects in Europe are supported, even if with lower predicted traffic than these four Swiss tunnels, only by politics (Lyon-Turin/Fréjus Base Tunnel, many Spanish HSL).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #219
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
However, in some cases Trenitalia acts in its rights, like the routing and dispatching of TILO trains.
The problem with Tilo is not routing or dispatching. It's getting permission to run Flirts in Italy...

Quote:
The Swiss also don't agree with the way Trenitalia would have freight trains dispatched northward. They make many freight trains wait instead of granting them paths to preserve, again, the "perfect" timetable that cannot be disrupted by freight trains, at the same time they don't build dedicated HS railways for passengers only.

Swiss coming freight trains have a much easier time using Italian network than the opposite.
All what you write above is false.
- Switzerland does build dedicated passenger lines, and does try to separate passenger and freight as much as possible. The Gotthard route is one of a few where a major freight route coincides with a major passenger route. And that is because of geography.
- All a train has to do in order to proceed up the Gotthard without delay is turn up in Chiasso on time. That this is a serious challenge for the Italians is not the fault of the Swiss.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2011, 10:51 PM   #220
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Downhill only: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2TLH1bQiY

(apparently it was built a century ago to check the line)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
basel, zurich

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium