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Old May 4th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by railzilla View Post
The dwell times gives the capacity at Stadelhofen, which is the bottleneck and almost at maximum capacity now. Thats why they thinking about to use single deck trains with more doors, less seats and more standees.
Currently the only trains on order for the S-Bahn Zürich are double deckers.
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If the doubledeckers get more crowded they take even a longer dwell time thus reducing line capacity. And 50 Second is also too long for an S-Bahn. They want to cut it to 20-30 seconds. And even more to increase line capacity the complex interline of different lines will not possible anymore. So that means less lines but with higher frequency.
Railway planning in Switzerland uses quite long planning horizons. How the S-Bahn Zürich will look in 2020 is pretty much already known. And none of what you describe above is in the plan.
Do you have a source for what you are describing? I'm quite intrigued, as I haven't read anything about those ideas, and I do follow the Swiss Rail Industry quite closely.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #262
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Here is the proposal he speaks about:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueric....10180861.html

It is more a vision for 2030 and it is (as I read it) not a replacement of the current double decker but additional S-Bahn services that only serve the innermost stations of the city.

But this is city transportation so a different usecase!
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Old May 4th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #263
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They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #264
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Here is the proposal he speaks about:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueric....10180861.html
It looks more like a kind of a brainstorm to me :-)

But there are other plans, like the Stadbahn Limmattal, that will take some of the load of the S-Bahn. I think that as a long term strategy improving interurban tramlines have a better chance.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #265
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It looks more like a kind of a brainstorm to me :-)
Yeah, it's something like 2030 onward. In this time dimensions we can also think about building an U-Bahn.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.
You do realize that the S-Bahn is the urban rail system in the Greater Zürich area. And it wouldn't make a very big difference since only a few IC and IR trains have more then 1 stop within Zürich (if you don't count the airport).


Anyway, since the current 4th stage of expansion of the S-Bahn will only be completely finished in 2018 we might not see any big decisions on big infrastructural projects in the next few years. First it has to be seen what kind of effect the new tunnel and the new trains will have on the system.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 09:52 AM   #267
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For the S-Bahn Bern double deck trains have been ordered too.
Bern? AFAIK Bern has much less passangers than Zürich. I suppose you're talking about BLS lines, and BLS mostly uses short trains (e.g. NINA), the only really long one is 535 but even this one has only 4 parts. Why need they double deckers?
In Zürich (central network) in rush hours 300m long, 12-part double deckers are in use, no doubt they're needed and a replacement by single deckers would drive to a disaster for sure.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They should segregate more the intercity services from mere urban rail then. That can be achieved via mere fare system tweaking in which it becomes expensive to use intercity rail for short hops within the city only.
The whole discuss is about S-Bahn trains, nothing else. I suppose you know very well what S-Bahn means :-) And in Zürich really many passangers use it for daily commuting inside the city for 3-10 minute rides since Zürich has no more urban railways than S-Bahn (no subway here).
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Old May 5th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #269
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They will be used on S1 which uses three NINA on each train (each with 3 or 4 cars). Later they will be used on S3 and S6.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 10:45 AM   #270
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Also Stadler trains?
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Old May 5th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #271
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They will be used on S1 which uses three NINA on each train (each with 3 or 4 cars). Later they will be used on S3 and S6.
I see, thanks.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #272
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Also Stadler trains?
Yes. 4 car version, similar as the sets SBB ordered for RE services (4 car sets) , and the Zürich S-Bahn (6 car).

http://www.bls.ch/data/medien/MM-Dos...esentation.pdf
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Old May 5th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #273
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Quote:
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Bern? AFAIK Bern has much less passangers than Zürich. I suppose you're talking about BLS lines, and BLS mostly uses short trains (e.g. NINA), the only really long one is 535 but even this one has only 4 parts. Why need they double deckers?
Two reasons:
- S1 now uses trains of four coupled Ninas during rush hour, and people are still standing. Not all stations on that line have platforms long enough that they can lengthen trains further, and running more services is also problematic (the Bern - Thun line carries a lot of freight to). So they use doubledeckers.
Other lines where they want to use them are the S6 to Schwarzenburg, which will enable the BLS to avoid having to lengthen the platforms on that line. S3 is also a candidate, as there running more trains isn't really an option either. SBB is going to use the same type of trains for RE services on Bern - Biel ( northwestern part of S3) so passengers on that route will have the same comfort regardless of which service they use.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #274
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Yeah, it's something like 2030 onward. In this time dimensions we can also think about building an U-Bahn.
Whatever they come up with, they will have to sell it to the voters. Maybe some form of Metro has a chance now, given the success of the Lausanne Metro.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 08:23 PM   #275
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Quote:
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Double deckers are state-of-the-art. Countries that are still running single deckers always appear to be a little backward to me.
Bollocks. Double-deckers are nowhere near state of the art. This technology is rather old. In fact, double-deckers are a second class solution for capacity strained systems.

The technologically most advanced trains, however, are entirely single-deckers. Alstoms AGV, the Velaro of Siemens as well as the latest Shinkansen trainsets.

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The single decker commuter trains with stepless entry Stadler GTW, Stadler FLIRT and Domino also don't have a flat interior. Its also quite narrow if you want to move with a wheelchair. So even on single deck trains the possibility to move freely with wheelchair is only theoretical.
No, this possibility is pretty real. Properly designed rail systems are entirely accessible. It is just the short-sightedness of the SBB strategy to stick to low level platform that preserve physical obstacles.
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Old May 5th, 2011, 08:51 PM   #276
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Raising platform to allow steepless entrance to trains and a flat floor is difficult because, beside the cost, some trains would still need to stop on low level platforms (like on cross border services). Sure trains may be provided with foldable steps, but steps are exactly the thing railways want to remove. There may also be some problems with loading gauge. I find 55 cm high platform an accpetable compromise.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 07:54 AM   #277
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Quote:
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Bollocks. Double-deckers are nowhere near state of the art. This technology is rather old. In fact, double-deckers are a second class solution for capacity strained systems.

The technologically most advanced trains, however, are entirely single-deckers. Alstoms AGV, the Velaro of Siemens as well as the latest Shinkansen trainsets.
In other words, you can't have a state of the art non high speed network. It's not like every single connection in every single country can sustain a full high speed network.

For example, between Zürich and Bern/Basel a completed high speed line would be very good. But the same trains also serve the Zürich - Winterthur route that is also very busy but just too close to each other for a expensive high speed line. On the other side of the route, on the line from Bern to Lausanne/Geneve would technically be a good choice for a High Speed Line, but financially it's a different story. The new SBB double decker trains combine these difficulties of the diverse Swiss system so they can be used as good as possible on all parts of the line. Making them very state of the art.

And we just have to wait until Alstom designs the AGV2N, because it's pretty obvious that the SNCF needs the capacity on the Paris - Lyon - Marseille route. Otherwise they will still be ordering the good old fashioned TGV2N sets instead of the state of the art AGV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
No, this possibility is pretty real. Properly designed rail systems are entirely accessible. It is just the short-sightedness of the SBB strategy to stick to low level platform that preserve physical obstacles.
This train was designed to carry as many standing people as possible, that wheelchairs can move freely outside the rush-hours is just a good but unnecessary bonus.

But I do prefer high platform systems, but in reality it's not always possible. It's good enough that there is uniform platform height all throughout the system, new trains can be designed for that height.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 08:37 AM   #278
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It's absolutely possible to have double decker high speed trains:


But the IC2000 already reaches the current maximum on Swiss tracks, so it doesn't matter anyway.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 11:36 AM   #279
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Its a bit like saying, a Boeing 787 or a A350 isn't state of the art because a A380 has two decks. In one word: bollocks.


Of course it makes sense to invest in double decker train sets if its the easiest option to provide higher capacity. One always have to keep in mind that Switzerland is not only very montaneous, but also densely populated, especially in the Mittelland, which makes investments in new rail lines exorbitantely expensive and difficult.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 12:48 PM   #280
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Quote:
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Its a bit like saying, a Boeing 787 or a A350 isn't state of the art because a A380 has two decks. In one word: bollocks.
The argument was that double-deckers aren't state of the art. Don't mix up things.
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The question is: if you have a line so heavily used that you can't adopt state-of-the-art trains because you need to settle with double-deckers, you are past big time the point in which you should have expanded the line.
And yes it would be like saying the A380 isn't state of the art because the Dreamliner has only one deck. To your sophisticated vocabulary Bollocks.
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