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Old May 17th, 2011, 10:20 PM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Comparable cities like the bigger cities in the Netherlands simply a bigger radius with every station. Plus there's no integrated tariff system between the different public transport systems. Therefor you see a much bigger share of private transport, with all the congestion problems that also have a negative effect on the local public transport systems that feed the railways.
There are integrated monthly subscriptions for different carriers in Netherlands. And for regular use, the km-based fees implemented since 2009 with the OV-Chipkaart render the concept of tariff integration obsolete, as you pay for distance traveled.

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In the Canton of Zürich the public transport system is fully integrated in a tariff union called ZVV. This covers something like 51 public transport companies (of which 6 railways), and serves a population of 1.3 million. Modal share of public transport is 36% (car is 39%). In the city of Zürich itself public transport moves about twice the number of people as private transport does.
Zürich is one of the wealthiest areas in the world, which shows that a high standard of living is not incompatible with high transit usage...
It is deceiving to measure share of transportation modals on basis of passenger counts. You ought to measure them in a more technical parameter, passenger-km. If you have 10 passengers using a subway for 4km, and 2 passengers using a regional rail for 30km, these 2 passengers put a strain in the system greater than the 10 short-hoppers.

So in every major city in Western Europe, if you measure shares by mere passenger count, you end with high transit shares, but you can't ignore the usual fact that car drivers are among those commuting the longest distance, and for the sake of comparison, 2 passengers driving their cars 30km put more strain on the system than 10 passengers driving 4km.

I am sure they have passenger-km measurement in Zürich.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #302
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Public transport in Switzerland holds about 25% of passengers-km, which is much considering that there are a lot of non urban trips. Train share on trips like Bern/Basel-Zürich (municipalities) is around 70 to 90%, finally Basel has around 333 cars every inhabitants, which is very low for a 200.000 inhabitants city (to compare, Milan has around 600).
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Old May 17th, 2011, 11:24 PM   #303
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Quote:
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And for regular use, the km-based fees implemented since 2009 with the OV-Chipkaart render the concept of tariff integration obsolete, as you pay for distance traveled.
You still pay the starting tariff twice if you change from the bus to the train in, and the strippenkaart can't be used anymore on the train where it could be used before. There's simply not the same cooperation as in Zürich were it seems to be working very good.


ps, I like the Re450 DPZ set that got a special look with liveries of 8 companies that are working together in the ZVV.






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Old May 17th, 2011, 11:40 PM   #304
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Bern and Milano are not appropriate, comparable cities anyway. I've been in Bern just twice. Parking was quite expensive, but otherwise traffic was not that bad.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 10:59 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

So in every major city in Western Europe, if you measure shares by mere passenger count, you end with high transit shares, but you can't ignore the usual fact that car drivers are among those commuting the longest distance, and for the sake of comparison, 2 passengers driving their cars 30km put more strain on the system than 10 passengers driving 4km.

I am sure they have passenger-km measurement in Zürich.
They do. But the figures are not that different. Don't forget that long distance commuters (like myself) are more likely to use the train even than short distance commuters.

Anyway, the modal shares of the different modes use by commuters with place of employment (or schooling) in the canton of Zürich is:

In Trips: 36% public transit, 39% car
In km: 39% publict transit, 51% car.

that is for the whole canton, including rural areas.

The number of commuters that enter the city of Zürich by train every day is about 380000. And that is quite impressive for a city that size. Without public transit this city couldn't function.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #306
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The number of commuters that enter the city of Zürich by train every day is about 380000. And that is quite impressive for a city that size. Without public transit this city couldn't function.
380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.

But neither are Zurich-bound commuters all going to change to car, nor are their American counterparts going to change to train anyway - at least, in both cases, not on short times.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:05 PM   #307
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380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.
I suggest you draw up a volksinitiative calling for the demolishing of Zürich and it's reconstruction along US lines, and see how many signatures you can collect before you are run out of town...
Given that US style Urban freeways don't even seem to work very well in the US why would we introduce them here?
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:10 PM   #308
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Parking was quite expensive, but otherwise traffic was not that bad.
And the one has something to do with the other...

Last edited by K_; May 19th, 2011 at 07:39 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #309
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Easternmost Switzerland connections

Currently, a rail map of mine show that railway stops at Scuol. How suitable is that rail line for freight? Are there any long-term plans to connect it with Rundek, in Austria, all the way down the valley?
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Old May 18th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #310
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Around 80 to 100 years ago there were plans to link Scuol and Landeck. Today there is still someone who proposes to build it, or to built a line to Mals in Südtirol, but it is unlikely they will be built.

The existing line to Scuol is narrow gauge, so unsuitable for any transit freight. However it carries local freight, the entire RhB network carries around one million tonnes on 380 km of lines. Part of this traffic, like wood, is transhipped (to road...) in Tirano, but most comes from the SBB network.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 01:16 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
380.000 train commuters would translate, hypothetically, in something like 340.000 cars. Surely a high number, but doable if you US-style building urban freeways and lots of parking grounds.
I think you're wrong for two reasons.
1., Building a lot of US style expressways is almost impossible (and very, very expensive any way) if you have such a geographical environment (I mean mountains) that Zürich has. Btw. even Zürich has built some roads this way (check e.g. Hardbrücke) where it was possible.
2., Unlike US cities Zürich (and most of European cities) has a very solid city center which is the target for most of commuters. You should create parking lots for hundreds of thousands of cars in a pretty narrow area where even finding a free place would take a lot of time for each driver. If you wanna take an American example, check Manhattan.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 07:01 PM   #312
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Old May 18th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Around 80 to 100 years ago there were plans to link Scuol and Landeck. Today there is still someone who proposes to build it, or to built a line to Mals in Südtirol, but it is unlikely they will be built.
Its interesting to see that all the recent proposals for new rail connections in Graubunden.
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/hinter...1.5395978.html

And it's not just a couple of wild plans, the Kanton Graubunden has done some studies for quite a few new rail connections.

http://www.gr.ch/DE/INSTITUTIONEN/VE...nProjekte.aspx
http://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/ve...n/default.aspx

The line from the Engadin to Mals keeps coming, it does look like it's still the long term agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if it become a real project at the end of this decade. First the new Albula tunnel will be constructed from 2014, the Engadin - Vinschgau - Bahn could be the next big project.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 03:49 AM   #314
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Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?
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Old May 19th, 2011, 07:38 AM   #315
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Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?
You don't need a cog railway on a 4% incline.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #316
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Cog railways are outdated IMO. They are too slow. How is the largest speed a train can attain in a cog railway with 4% incline?
Not very fast, i would say 60 km/h or so. But what alternative do you propose ?
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Old May 19th, 2011, 05:47 PM   #317
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Not very fast, i would say 60 km/h or so. But what alternative do you propose ?
It's slower than that. In Switzerland maximum speed on rack railways is 40km/h.

However, 4% doesn't need rack. The high speed line from Köln to Frankfurt has grades of up to 4%, and speed there is 300kph...
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Old May 19th, 2011, 06:42 PM   #318
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I think the limit for adhesion (i.e. just rail and wheels, no cogs or racks) is 7.0%. In some cases (Arica-La Paz) the rack is disused because electric and diesel-electric motors provide more consistent traction and can operate on steeper grades than the original steam engines.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 07:01 PM   #319
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According to Wikipedia the steepest adhesion track on a longer line is 116 ‰ on Pöstlingbergbahn in Linz Austria, but that's more like a tramline.

In Switzerland the maximum adhesion grade can be found on the Uetlibergbahn with 79 ‰. But the 7% seems to be the maximum for longer lines, like Berrninabahn that has a maximum of 7% on many parts of the 60km long line.


Is it outdated?

Probably, but in the mountains you simply have to make a choice sometimes. Use a rack system that limits the speed, or build a longer line with more tunnels (= more expensive) that only a little bit faster.

Just look at the Wengeralpbahn from the pictures that hkskyline posted, those go 28km/h on tracks with a grade as much as 25%. The only thing faster would be a cablecar, but then you wouldn't be able to go all the way up to the Jungfraujoch by train.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 09:03 PM   #320
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Just look at the Wengeralpbahn from the pictures that hkskyline posted, those go 28km/h on tracks with a grade as much as 25%. The only thing faster would be a cablecar, but then you wouldn't be able to go all the way up to the Jungfraujoch by train.
Speeding it up might even be risky, as some people gaining that much altitude so fast could lead to medical problems.
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