daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 10th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #621
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is a very hypocrite attitude to think some region is "cool" because it lacks infrastructure when you have or want all that infrastructure at your doorstep. It reminds of people in London or New York protesting against plans by some African country to build new cities or roads or safaris in "pristine untouched rainforest" as if certain regions of the World or the country should be cursed with a prohibition of development.
Actually you are in this case the hypocrite in the far away place that is trying to tell the people of Graubunden how they should run their region...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 10th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #622
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
There are many villages with 2000-5000 people who don't have very fast connections to Zürich, Bern ect.

If you go/live in the middle of the alps close to 2000m you shouldn't expect to have the same accessibility as living in the flat.
On of the odd things about Switzerland is however that there are many nice villages in the Alps that are nevertheless withing commuting distance of the main cities. But people for some reason don't move there, and I have some trouble understanding that. Or maybe the mountains are not that special to the Swiss...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #623
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
On of the odd things about Switzerland is however that there are many nice villages in the Alps that are nevertheless withing commuting distance of the main cities. But people for some reason don't move there, and I have some trouble understanding that. Or maybe the mountains are not that special to the Swiss...
Vacationing in a mountain destination is cool. Living there, probably not so (short days with long shade hours, difficulties in harsh weather etc)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #624
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

Just to put things into perspective:

Today's Lausanne network:



What it will look like:



and Berne's network:



Both cities have approximately the same number of residents in its metropolitan area, I don't know however whether Lausanne's residents are more concentrated given that the Lake acts as a large attraction and most big towns are located there.

IMO the greatest problem are frecuencies, but that's hard to solve given that some parts of the network are saturated with Regio, RegioExpress, ICN's, IC's etc.
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 08:03 PM   #625
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is a very hypocrite attitude to think some region is "cool" because it lacks infrastructure when you have or want all that infrastructure at your doorstep. It reminds of people in London or New York protesting against plans by some African country to build new cities or roads or safaris in "pristine untouched rainforest" as if certain regions of the World or the country should be cursed with a prohibition of development.
No, it's hypocrite to think you can live in the middle of nowhere and have the same infrastructure as if you lived in the city. And not pay for it on top of that, that's hypocrite.
If Graubünden wants to have a better infrastructure they are free to build it. But currently Graubünden is receiving a lot more money from the federal government than they pay taxes. I don't see why I should pay even more for those people living in the mountains, the current level of support is enough.
Quote:
Graundünden has a lot of cross-skiing potential and could be a major tourist destination. Not to the level of the Lauterbrunnen valley but certainly like Valais or some valleys in neighboring Italy.
Graubünden is a major tourist destination, St.Moritz is a top spot, Davos has the WEF, and Laax is one of the most famous freestyle destination that was even included in X-Box games (amped 2&3).
Quote:
Instead of that, it is an stagnated region with declining population and no major resort/tourist/holiday residence development* planned.
There are quite a lot projects. Enhancement of the Vals Spa, modernization of the Laax Ski resort, the connection of Lenzerheide and Arosa with a 3S cable car.
Quote:
A fast (not necessarily high-speed) Rems-St. Moritz - Chiavenna - Belizona fast railway, with many viaducts and some long-ish tunnels, would help a lot to spur development and growth in the area
There is a 1500 Meter difference in altitude between Maloja and Chiavenna, as cool a train on this route might be, it would not be fast as there is no a train can descent/accent this altitude in 25km (that would be 6%).
And Chiavenna - Belinzona is at least a 13km tunnel.

Now if the Valtellina was still part of Switzerland such a train might have been built already.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 08:12 PM   #626
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

What about, at least, a Thusis-Belizona railway with a San Bernardino railway tunnel, and a faster connection Chur-St. Moritz than the current scenic, but inefficient, slow and substandard highway that runs there?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 08:40 PM   #627
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

A San Bernardino tunnel would have a length of ~30km, so the same as the Lötschberg. It would be an interesting project but it would cost billions.

I don't see a simple solution for the Julier either, the pass is very flat on top. So a tunnel wont have a good cost/result ratio. Of course the ramps could be improved (similar to Simplon or Gr.St.Bernhard).

The N28 is almost finished now (only Küblis bypass left) and together with the Vereina tunnel it offers a good access to the lower Engadin.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 07:30 AM   #628
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Vacationing in a mountain destination is cool. Living there, probably not so (short days with long shade hours, difficulties in harsh weather etc)
Nevertheless, the permanent population in the Engadine has increased by about 12% in the last two decades. And that in spite of the lack of fast connections to the rest of Switzerland. So I guess it's not really a problem for most people living there.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 08:09 AM   #629
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
A San Bernardino tunnel would have a length of ~30km, so the same as the Lötschberg. It would be an interesting project but it would cost billions.
I think it was suggested as an alternative to the Gotthard base tunnel once.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #630
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Well building a HSR through the Rhine valley would have been easier than one through the Reuss valley. But it would have ended in Bregenz and there aren't any high speed or high capacity tracks going further from there.
The Gotthard lines ends closer to Zürich and Basel from where there are a lot of connections.
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #631
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Cadence 30 minutes. And they call it an S-Bahn. The Swiss are such hot-air merchants.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #632
earthJoker
Ölm
 
earthJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,806
Likes (Received): 1988

Don't start that discussion again!
__________________
Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

See you in the Swiss Forum on skyscrapercity.com
earthJoker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #633
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Well, then stop calling it an S-Bahn.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #634
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Cadence 30 minutes. And they call it an S-Bahn. The Swiss are such hot-air merchants.
Gosh, what is your problem...

(cadence is every 15 minutes for quite a few lines btw...)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #635
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Well, then stop calling it an S-Bahn.
I suggest you file a complaint with the copyright owner of the word "S-Bahn". Oh wait. There is no such authority.
Which is why every operator can call his service an "S-Bahn" if they are so inclined.
Like the "Orthenau S Bahn", for example. Should they stop too :-)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #636
webeagle12
Registered User
 
webeagle12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Albany
Posts: 1,744
Likes (Received): 449

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I suggest you file a complaint with the copyright owner of the word "S-Bahn". Oh wait. There is no such authority.
Which is why every operator can call his service an "S-Bahn" if they are so inclined.
Like the "Orthenau S Bahn", for example. Should they stop too :-)
please STOP already.... both of you. Take it over PM
webeagle12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 06:39 PM   #637
General Electric
Registered User
 
General Electric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 7,456
Likes (Received): 7300

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Cadence 30 minutes. And they call it an S-Bahn. The Swiss are such hot-air merchants.
You're right. By its cadence (30 min.), our "S-Bahn" is more like a cog railway, rather than a regional express network (in west-switzerland).

Last edited by General Electric; April 11th, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
General Electric no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #638
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Cadence 30 minutes. And they call it an S-Bahn. The Swiss are such hot-air merchants.
You also need to take into account the rest of the network:



Although Allaman will be served by two RER lines (not S-Bahn, by the way) every 30 minutes, it'll also be served by two RegioExpress every 30 minutes, and so effectively there'll be 4 trains per hour to Lausanne. Another example, Morges, an important city, also served by the same two RER lines, will have six trains per hour towards Lausanne when counting the IR and the RE. It doesn't really matter which train brings you to Lausanne as tickets are valid for all of them.
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #639
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

The mere fact they focus in a small set of made-for-IQ 40-people-who-can't-deal-with-fractions of frequencies is already a let down.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #640
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
A fast (not necessarily high-speed) Rems-St. Moritz - Chiavenna - Belizona fast railway, with many viaducts and some long-ish tunnels, would help a lot to spur development and growth in the area.
The proposal of the Chiavenna-Bellinzona tunnel come back on newspapers from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
A San Bernardino tunnel would have a length of ~30km, so the same as the Lötschberg. It would be an interesting project but it would cost billions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I think it was suggested as an alternative to the Gotthard base tunnel once.
There were many proposed alternatives: Lötschberg-Simplon, Gotthard West (Luzern/Bern-Meiringen-Locarno-Lugano), Tödi-Greina (Ziegelbrücke-Glarus-some km east of Lukmanier pass-Biasca-Bellinzona), San Bernardino (like the A13), Splügen (Chur-Chiavenna-Lecco-Milano). The last one had been proposed also in the XIX century, and never had real chances to be built because it did not serve Swiss internal traffic (it's because of national traffic the Lötschberg base tunnel has been built, even if single track only).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
*off-topic: Swiss law is very strict in not allowing foreigners owning real estate in CH if they don't live there, but that is another story.
It's no more a problem, as a new law has been accepted banning more than 20% of new secondary homes in each municipality.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
basel, zurich

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium