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Old April 15th, 2012, 04:19 PM   #721
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they are refurbishing the old Bpm 51 RIC coaches exactly because of the urgent need of capacity
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Old April 15th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A north-south line would be nice for freight traffic but useless if the Italians (and partially Germans) continue doing nothing.
The Germans have some delays but the work is in progress, and the French have now very good connections from Basel. So a faster Basel-Olten line would make sense.

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This is only true if you assume people would not check timetables before travelling. Which is a dumb thing to go. Only when service frequency is like a high-performance subway line (one train every 4 minutes or less) one could really count on going to a station without bothering with the timetable.

Unless one has time to waste and wants to do so, nobody would just head to the station and wait the next every-30-min train without being sure, before leaving their house/office/wherever the actual departure time.
When you work at a client you can't decide when you leave. You just leave when your work at that client is done. And after that you want to return as fast as possible because time is money.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:16 AM   #723
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Nobody needs to MEMORIZE schedules when everybody has smartphones or computers to keep their schedules and check things out.
Smartphone gives the user nothing which a paper pocketbook schedule would not.

The schedule should be sufficiently simple and memorable that a user who needs to reach an unfamiliar destination (or hears of upcoming schedule change) can cast a quick glimpse on the schedule - and then have the confidence that he or she can quickly read and memorize the part they need, do just that - and then put the book or smartphone back in the pocket, or navigate to another page, or dial a number to call someone bout the trip just planned.

The schedule should inspire confidence, considering that the user is confronted with the two temptations of taking his car out of garage, or not bothering with the trip.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #724
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Today the SBB has published their official "Invitation to tender" for 29 non-tilting high speed trains for the North-South Axis via the Gotthard and the Lötschberg tunnels.
http://www.sbb.ch/sbb-konzern/medien...604_45_01.html


Some of the details from the actual tender
www.simap.ch/ (I can't link to the actual tender, you have to search SBB).

- SBB intends to purchase TSI Class 2 single-deck high-speed trains for operations on the rail network in Switzerland as well as in Germany, Italy and Austria

- The following types of vehicles shall be supplied: 200-m-long trains (max. length in identical-type coupled units: 400m + 1%)

- The minimum useful operational life should be 25 years. The running gear, traction equipment and structure of the high-speed trains shall nevertheless be designed for a service life of 40 years.

- Top speed of at least 249 km/h (for 15/25kV AC) and 160 km/h (for 3kV DC)

- Conclusion and signing of the contractual agreement scheduled for Q3 2013


The trains should come into service on late 2017. This will result in 3 year gap after the ETR 470 will be phased out late 2014. The SBB will come with an announcement about an interim solution for this period in a few months.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #725
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Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
ICx, anyone?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #726
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Quote:
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Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
ICx, anyone?
ICx would be a good fit I think. Especially since they will be certified for Germany, Austria and Switzerland and DB is interested in having theirs certified for Italy as well. If tilting trains are no longer needed for North-South traffic some of the existing ETR.610 sets could be used for Zürich - Brussel services.

An interesting detail in the tender is that it include two options that, if lifted, would mean up to 92 additional sets. Quite a big order...
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Old April 16th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #727
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Let's see if Bombardier can win this. I'm afraid of a duopoly Siemens-Alstom and would rather have some other company bid lower for the contract.

If bombardier wins, it would likely subcontract some of the work to AnsaldoBreda and it has been doing with the ETR1000. That way, Ansaldo can recuperate from the IC4 bad PR it got. Hopefully.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #728
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how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..
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Old April 16th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #729
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Quote:
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Sounds like a good competition between Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens.
ICx, anyone?
Isn't CAF also not producing high speed trains? The local Stadler I guess is only into commuter trains...
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Old April 16th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #730
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If bombardier wins, it would likely subcontract some of the work to AnsaldoBreda and it has been doing with the ETR1000. That way, Ansaldo can recuperate from the IC4 bad PR it got. Hopefully.
The trains are needed for 2017, not 2037.

Stadler tried to subcontract some Flirt trains to AnsaldoBreda. The Stadler half of them is nearly completed, while AnsaldoBreda apparently hasn't started building them.

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how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..
Because 29 trains are cheaper than 30 and the planned service doesn't require more.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #731
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Quote:
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Isn't CAF also not producing high speed trains? The local Stadler I guess is only into commuter trains...
Not really

Stadler has some real long-distance beauties like the KISS now finishing the testing and drivers' training to start operating soon:


It's also been sold to Austria already
image hosted on flickr

4010 007-1Westbahn ( Stadler KISS ) par vsoe, sur Flickr

And Bombardier also has manufacturing facilities in the country, in Villeneuve to be more precise.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..
They read this thread and after reading Suburbanist's arguments against round numbers rethought their decision to buy 29.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 09:56 PM   #733
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I found this in the tender:

"Preliminary exploratory meetings have been held with the following potential bidders: AnsaldoBreda, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi Rail Europe, Siemens, Stadler, and Talgo Deutschland GmbH. SBB’s objective in conducting these meetings has been to assess the market and risks concerning the feasibility of this rolling stock, and review the technical features of rolling stock currently available on the market for the regions in which SBB plans to deploy it. These bidders are not considered to have had prior involvement, and are expressly entitled to submit a tender."


The only companies that hadn't been named in this thread are Hitachi and Talgo. It remains to be seen if Stadler, who only recently expanded into the 200 km/h IC market will actually go a step further and move into the high speed market. They could come up with a single deck version of their KISS double deck EMUs and speed it up to 249 km/h.

From an unbiased perspective the main issue for AnsaldoBreda right now is that their future is very unclear. It's very possible that the company will be sold before this contract is actually awarded. Hitachi is one of the recent companies that has shown interest in buying AnsaldoBreda and Ansaldo STS. This could result in a situation where 1 company has suddenly 2 bids, I doubt that the SBB will be happy about that. Btw, from a biased perspective: F*ck Ansaldo


I also don't see anything about a minimum amount of work that should be done in Switzerland for this contract.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #734
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I hope I'm wrong but I don't see Stalder developing a new high-speed train for a 29-train offer even with so many options in the contract, and the market of high-speed rail is more closed with countries usually buying stock from companies based in their territory.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
The trains should come into service on late 2017. This will result in 3 year gap after the ETR 470 will be phased out late 2014. The SBB will come with an announcement about an interim solution for this period in a few months.
SBB CFF FFS is planning to use conventional coaches sandwiched between two Re 474 locomotives to reduce manoeuvres in Zürich and Milan (especially in the latter) and, in 2017-2018, in Rotkreuz.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:57 AM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..
SBB plans very carefully and probably already knows how many trains they need to cover all the services they intend to run on the Gotthard.

They have options for more trains though. You never know what might happen. SBB might decide that the only option to get decent Switzerland - Italy traffic going is to go open access, like DB-ÖBB.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 02:28 AM   #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
how do you come up with a number like 29? why not 30 FCOL

only the swiss..
Maybe it's because 29 is a prime number!
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Old April 17th, 2012, 07:21 AM   #738
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I hope I'm wrong but I don't see Stalder developing a new high-speed train for a 29-train offer even with so many options in the contract, and the market of high-speed rail is more closed with countries usually buying stock from companies based in their territory.
But a 249 kph train is not a high speed train. The TSI criteria for a 200 kph train are the same as for a 249 kph train. It's only at 250 kph that a train becomes "high speed" according to the TSI.
Stadler has already build 200 kph versions of it's FLIRT and KISS platform. I don't think that 249 kph is beyond the capabilities of the Stadler engineers. And Stadler wants to expand.

What Stadler could offer is a train that consists of two single ended five car FLIRT sets, each with two power packs, semi permanently coupled with a restaurant car or a second class coach (to cover both variants SBB wants). Such a train would have 4 powerpacks and between 5000 and 6000 kW.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 12:05 AM   #739
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My guess is that the contract will be awarded to Alstom or Bombardier, potentially in a joint venture as they did with the ICN. If I'm not mistaken (I am not into that much detail of the Swiss railway market), InterCity Neige is a success story.

AnsaldoBreda bidding and winning the contract? Highly unlikely due to their track record with the V250. Theoretically speaking, the V250 is a perfect match for SBB's requirements, achieving a top speed according to specifications, complies with TSI's, etc. But realistically, they don't stand much of a chance.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #740
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70% of V250 problems are due to the inept actions of Infrabel and, to a much lesser extent, ProRail.
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