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Old July 6th, 2012, 07:09 AM   #861
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is all too easy to cheat fare collection on systems where you can buy your ticket online, unless you have thorough checks all over the place between every two stations.
You mean "on board", not "on line", right?

The main reason is however not that it is hard to check everyone on the train. Conductors have good memories, and when they come to you they'll have a good idea of where you got on, so it was always beter to tell the truth rather than trying to pretend you got on at the last stop, since that way you risked you a heavy fine... Not telling the truth to the conductor is fraud, and the fine for that is very high.
The main reason was mostly increased aggression by passengers. Now there is less to discuss about.

Quote:
SBB was losing "tens of millions of francs" because conductors couldn't check everyone on each train, and thus people could travel for free even if they were willing to buy a ticket.
On most trains there are not ticket checks at all...

SBB is going to apply the rules flexible though. Passengers arriving from Italy for example can still buy tickets for the remainder of their trip on board.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 08:22 AM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You mean "on board", not "on line", right?

The main reason is however not that it is hard to check everyone on the train. Conductors have good memories, and when they come to you they'll have a good idea of where you got on, so it was always beter to tell the truth rather than trying to pretend you got on at the last stop, since that way you risked you a heavy fine... Not telling the truth to the conductor is fraud, and the fine for that is very high.
The main reason was mostly increased aggression by passengers. Now there is less to discuss about.



On most trains there are not ticket checks at all...

SBB is going to apply the rules flexible though. Passengers arriving from Italy for example can still buy tickets for the remainder of their trip on board.
Actually selling tickets online is also subject to fraud; e.g. someone travelling between Lausanne and Genève in an IR train might very well just buy the ticket with his phone when he sees the ticket collector arrive, and that might happen after train has already stopped in Morges and Nyon so he would pay much less if he bought the ticket starting from Nyon and pretending he got on the train there. It's risky, but I'm pretty sure it happens. Ticket collectors can't and don't have such a good memory as to tell you're lying, specially on trains with plenty of passengers where often they just start yelling "passengers who got in the last station please show your tickets! anyone got in the last station?!". BTW on most long-distance trains there are indeed ticket collectors, I'm sure it happens but I've never travelled on an IC, ICN or IR without getting checked.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #863
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Actually selling tickets online is also subject to fraud; e.g. someone travelling between Lausanne and Genève in an IR train might very well just buy the ticket with his phone when he sees the ticket collector arrive, and that might happen after train has already stopped in Morges and Nyon so he would pay much less if he bought the ticket starting from Nyon and pretending he got on the train there. It's risky, but I'm pretty sure it happens.
It is indeed risky. And if they do catch you then you'll get prosecuted for fraud, not merely fare evasion. And you won't be permitted to buy on-line tickets anymore.

Some conductors have very good memories, and a good nose for fare evaders, and make it a sport to find them.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #864
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That is the problem: CH has too many hail hubs.

I'm collecting schedules from other international trains to show how the Swiss scheduling slows them all, compared to traffic in neighboring countries of the same train services.
Ironically in the case of the schedule you posted, only Olten falls under that category without being one of the others (its the centre of an agglomeration of 100k though, which isn't that small for Swiss standards). Then again Olten is one of the most important backbones of the Swiss railway system.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #865
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In any case, since ticket machines are ubiquitous, I see no reason for giving the option to buy tickets on-board, especially if SBB itself claims to be losing tens of millions of francs.

Since its network is vast, maybe they should change towards a national transportation RFID card model, like the Netherlands (regardless of the whole issue or gating or not gating stations, which is separate from the issue of using RFID cards). RFID cards could become compulsory for use in any purely domestic journey.

That would also allow much more rich data collection on travel patterns.

================

The fines get higher if you care caught without a valid ticket more than once

1st occurrence - CHF 90
2nd - CHF 120
3rd and following - CHF 165

There are also huge extra fines if you provide false addresses or things that require extra paperwork because of false information, CHF 25 per 15min of clerk work trying to find you.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #866
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I think that buying tickets on the train should only be allowed when a passenger directly goes to the conductor to buy the ticket. That would rule out passengers that hope that the conductor won't make it's round so they don't have to pay for every trip. A small surcharge is also fair, except for when there's something wrong with the ticket machine at a smaller station.


As for the ICE from Interlaken.

The only stops on the swiss parts that could be axed are Olten and especially Liestal. But I also see in the schedule that the IC trains from Bern to Basel that run on the other half hour that don't stop there still have the same timings as the trains that do stop there. And I don't think the Olten stop would safe that much time that wit would make a big impact.

All the stops south of Bern are just extra, It's just like the TGV from Paris to Nice/Monaco/Ventimiglia, it takes you in 3 hours to Aix-en-Provence TGV close to Marseille and then it takes another 4 hours to Ventimiglia with all the stops in tourist coastal towns. This means that showing timings from Interlaken doesn't really mean anything here.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #867
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since ticket machines are ubiquitous
Not in Italy, neither in Chiasso.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:08 PM   #868
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As for the ICE from Interlaken.

The only stops on the swiss parts that could be axed are Olten and especially Liestal.
If you cut the stop in Liestal all you will achieve is that the train will have to run slow after the freight that usually precedes it. It won't be in Olten sooner.
Liestal is a hub for that region, where other lines connect, so having a half hourly service to Basel is needed. That's why two IC services are made to stop there at the moment. And Olten is needed to connect from again a whole bunch of other services.

However, AFAIK the SBB has the long term goal of having a non-stop Basel Bern service. I'm sure that once those paths are realised that the ICEs will be fitted in them. But a non stop service will always have to be in addition to a limited stop service.

Last edited by K_; July 6th, 2012 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #869
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But Liestal is also served by the S-bahn, that doesn't take to much longer to and from Basel and Olten then the IC. I see the stop just as a freebie for the town because it doesn't have an influence on the schedule. Not because it's the center of the region since it's still part of the greater Basel area.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #870
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Folks I somehow get the discussion about the ICE (standing for Inter-CITY-EXPRESS) stopping at so many stations.

I commute between Zurich and St.Gallen many times a week and what bothers me most is that the ICN and IC - again both INTERCITYs - stop at Gossau and eventually at Flawil and Utzwil. These are villages with a handful inhabitants, but slow down the train so badly. On the other hand there is the EC from Munich to Zurich which only stops in St.Gallen, Winterthur and both Zurich Airport and Main-station. These are reasonable stops and thereby the train is really fast (but sadly only runs like every 3 hours or so).

Now my question is what is the point of having S-Bahn and similar commuter trains when even the Inter-city stop at every f***** station.

Shouldn't the ICs just connect the main hubs and the S-Bahn bring all the rest of the people to the hubs? That would be so much more efficient and time-saving.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:02 PM   #871
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What is the point of stopping in Spiez as well? Aren't there frequent Bern-Interlaken services on the area? I know it is on the Lötschberg tunnel route, but people coming from Germany and going to Valais could easily transfer in Bern, for instance.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #872
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I think that the three -wil will be removed with the opening of the third Zürich Hauptbahnhof-Zürich Oerlikon tunnel around 2015, but I'm not sure.

Spiez is needed for Italy-Wallis-Interlaken trips.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #873
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Quote:
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Spiez is needed for Italy-Wallis-Interlaken trips.
But don't they have local/regional trains running from Interlaken Ost to Bern that call at Spiez? Do they need to board in ICE for that connection? Of course, passengers from Italy bound to Germany can change elsewhere down the line in Bern for instance.

==============

Another question: what are the chances of some serious work be done on the Luzern-Interlaken connections? It seems rather absurd it takes 2 hours to travel between both cities on a direct train.

Maybe a longer tunnel in Meiringen?
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #874
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Beside offering more travel connections, Spiez is where the single track begins, so it may be possible that IC trains would have to stop there in any case to wait for trains travelling in the other direction.

Luzern-Interlaken is also a tourist line, and a tunnel would be of little interest for tourists, apart from costing a lot of money.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #875
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Luzern-Interlaken is also a tourist line, and a tunnel would be of little interest for tourists, apart from costing a lot of money.
But what about regular passengers (non-tourists) travelling from Interlaken to Luzern? Both are relatively important cities. I know that connections to Zurich are faster via Bern.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #876
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They have to travel for 2 hours. A new line would be too costly for a little traffic.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #877
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They have to travel for 2 hours. A new line would be too costly for a little traffic.
A new line there could open a second branch out of the Loestchberg tunnel with additional works west of Interlaken.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #878
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$$$
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Old July 6th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #879
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Such petit bourgeois worry about "costs".

Convert the entire route from Montreaux to Luzerne to high-speed, standard-gauge double-track, with a base tunnel under the Brunig Pass, I say.

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Old July 6th, 2012, 08:30 PM   #880
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Such petit bourgeois worry about "costs".

Convert the entire route from Montreaux to Luzerne
Mountreaux-Luzerne? AFAIK, the Mountreux-(Lausanne)-Bern-Interlaken sector is passable (slow, but standard gauge and mostly grade-separated)
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