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Old December 9th, 2012, 12:25 AM   #981
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Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
It doesn't make much sense to have HSR in Switzerland since the whole Swiss train system is mostly based on connections which is why it enjoys high ridership levels, not counting the fact that population and centers are all much better distributed than in France or Spain.

But what applies to Switzerland does not apply to the rest, and given your statement I guess you are aware that Switzerland does invest in HSR outside its borders so that for example Geneva is linked to Paris by HSR.
This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:19 AM   #982
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The canton of Geneva is in advanced planning for a new mostly subterranean line that would link the enlarged Gare Cornavin with the airport through the UN area and then Meyrin and Zimeysa to link with the existing La Plaine line.

That would allow trains from the new CEVA line coming from Annemasse to link directly with the airport station for which new platforms underneath the existing ones would be built, without having to change trains.
That looks like a very interesting, and useful project. But if the idea is to build an underground addition to existing Cornavin, would it not be better to already start doing that now, in stead of enlarging the station?

Trains directly to the airport from the French Alps will be possible as soon as CEVA is finished. I don't know if any are planned though.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #983
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.
Are you trying to outdo Suburbanist in displaying your ignorance here?
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #984
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If Genève and Zürich became commuting areas of each other, you could probably fill a lot of trains.
For that you'd have to reduce the time to under an hour. 75 minutes is outside of commuting distance.

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At least some 20 trains a day per direction. You could then have some trains stopping in Bern (but not Lausanne).
There are already the many trains per day per direction. But 20 trains is not sufficient to justify a dedicated 300+ line economically. If you want to pay back your infrastructure from revenue you need something like 10 trains per hour...

Quote:
As for the argument of investing on local services vs. national services, it is an old trick that doesn't fly (at least with me): the mobility of people living around Lac Léman will not improve by having a crap 2h40 long connection between Genève-Zürich (a travel time that makes it difficult even to live in a city and work just 2/3 times a day in other, for instance). Gosh, you could even make the argument (as many people sometimes do, in a naive fashion) that inter-city non-commuting transportation should always have less priority than trams, local trains and subways that cater for much more people on a daily basis...
This has nothing to do with tricks. It has everything with spending the tax payers' money in accordance with the tax payers' wishes...

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Even commuting daily Bern-Genève today seems a bit long for daily commute, despite their relatively short distance. Apparently the policy of making the "triangle" Bern-Basel-Zürich a common multi-centered big metropolis with plenty of traffic in all directions doesn't apply to Western parts of the country...
In the case of the Bern - Basel - Zürich triangle the aim was never to bring them within commuting distance. Basel - Zürich has been under an hour for quite some time. The new line from Bern to Olten was built so that the whole nationwide timetable would fit better together, which made travel faster for almost everyone.
Anyway, there is not need to bring Geneva (or Lausanne) closer to Bern. The Swiss Federal Government has satellite offices in Lausanne so it can recruit people in the Arc Lémanique. Bringing the work closer to people is more efficient than bringing the people closer to the work...

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This is of course assuming the paradigm the Swiss set for themselves of making rail travel something that should be available nationally.
And the results they get seem to indicate they are doing something right, not?
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #985
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Today the new timetable starts in Switzerland (and in many other European countries). SMA always makes a nice graphical overview, that shows well how the network functions. You can download this network/timetable graph here:
http://www.sma-partner.ch/images/sto.../NGCH_2013.pdf
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:35 AM   #986
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Another question: have those works on the Martigny - Chamonix line been completed? Will the line re-open for this winter season?
No, it will not (on the French side).

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Suburbanist maybe doesn't realize it, but Switzerland is quite divided by language. A bit like Belgium but with significantly better relations. Therefore there is much less traffic between Zurich and Geneva than one would ordinarily expect between #1 and #2 cities of the country. Certainly nothing like Zurich-Bern and Geneva-Lausanne which are two most heavily used routes in Switzerland.

I've taken a train from Basel to Lausanne or Geneva couple time. It stops in several places in both German and French speaking areas an between stations where the language border is crossed the train is always significantly less full. Almost like crossing the border with France itself.
It has already been said why trains have to stop in both Lausanne and Bern, so I want just to add that traffic between different language groups is higher than across language borders that are also state borders elsewhere in Europe (beside the bilingual cities/towns/villages of Biel-Bienne, Murten-Morat, Fribourg-Freiburg, the Engadine agglomeration and so on).

A 30 minutes headway between InterCity trains is already offered or is planned within 10~15 years even across the röstigraben/polentagraben (German-French and German-Italian language borders).

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The other linguistic areas are well connected. Moreover, Switzerland for all matters have a dominant language groups, one big minority, one small minority and one oddity. It's not like Belgium at all where the split is 52-43-4
Romansh is not an oddity but a richness. A bilingual or monolingual Switzerland wouldn't be Switzerland
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Old December 9th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #987
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That looks like a very interesting, and useful project. But if the idea is to build an underground addition to existing Cornavin, would it not be better to already start doing that now, in stead of enlarging the station?
No no, the additional platforms would be added under the already underground station of the airport, Cornavin wouldn't be affected.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 01:04 PM   #988
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As K_ mentions today the new schedules have been introduced, and with it the biggest change in eastern Switzerland since rail 2000, with 50% of the trains having changed their departure times.

Some of the changes are:

From now on there'll be RegioExpress Genève-Lausanne every 30', one each per hour continuing to Romont or Vevey, with newer faster 2-deck trains.

The offer of trains from Valais to Genève has also increased and trains are 11' faster to reach Geneva.

Regional trains in Fribourg and Valais have also increased their frequencies to the 30'

New services from Lausanne to Romont and Palézieux (both in canton Fribourg) have also been introduced.

The suburban network of Lausanne has also been affected with the introduction of several new services and increased frequencies.

In canton Neuchâtel 30' services have also been introduced between Neuchâtel and Fleurier.

New relations between Neuchâtel - Yverdon-les-Bains - Morges have been introduced as well as Genève.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #989
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Are you trying to outdo Suburbanist in displaying your ignorance here?
If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #990
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If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.
To be honest I was about to say the same as him. Do a favour to everybody and check for example who's building the longest rail tunnel in the world and for what purpose.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #991
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Do a favour to everybody and check for example who's building the longest rail tunnel in the world and for what purpose.
It's been built to improve transport links from the Swiss Mittelland to the Tecino and further on to the Italian ports. The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #992
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It's been built to improve transport links from the Swiss Mittelland to the Tecino and further on to the Italian ports. The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.
Well, the shift from oil as prime energy source to other energy sources will be in our lifetime, and alternative power sources are more favourable and effective in case of bigger motors, so mass investing in motorway capacity are not wise thing to do...
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:18 AM   #993
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Well, the shift from oil as prime energy source to other energy sources will be in our lifetime, and alternative power sources are more favourable and effective in case of bigger motors, so mass investing in motorway capacity are not wise thing to do...
Road vehicles are not necessarily powered by fossil fuels.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:34 AM   #994
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Road vehicles are not necessarily powered by fossil fuels.
So, either you get trucks that carry as many fuel cells as proper cargo, or those funky Siemens eHighway stuff. And when you have that, you can go on and optimize and get rid of some friction related energy loss, they're not really going to turn all that way, so you can put in some rails... oh wait.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 07:35 AM   #995
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
If you can't keep up with the discussion intellectually then just do this forum the honour and leave. Your arrogance is no grace and this forum would do very well without.
You wrote

Quote:
This approach is extremely selfish. Countries around CH built modern rail lines to speed up journeys also for the Swiss. Yet, Switzerland invest only in infrastructure which benefits its own people. Switzerland could very well pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt/M and Milano.
And these three sentences do display a very high degree of ignorance, as they are both patently at odds with reality.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Switzerland has (and is) investing in improvement of railways outside its borders, where those improvements benefit it's people.
Switzerland has invested in the improvement of the Pontarlier - Dijon railway, has contributed to the construction of the LGV Rhin-Rhone, and has financed a third of the cost for the reopening of the Ligne du Haut Bugey which shortened Geneve - Paris timings.
Not knowing this you really are not in a postion to claim the high ground here.

But it doesn't stop there. You complain that Switzerland should pave the way for a fast rail link between Frankfurt and Milano.
Wel it is.
Since 2002 Switzerland has cut half an hour from Basel - Milano via the Simplon, and in a few years will cut a full hour from the Gotthard route.
Germany is also speeding up the route from Karlsruhe down to Basel but you can't claim the Switzerland is doing nothing here. On the contrary. Pretending that Switzerland is not investing in improving the Trans Alpine Railways could point towards a certain level of malice from your part. However, again, in your case I find ignorance easier to believe.

When Vaud pointed this out to you you answered thus:

Quote:
The project is beneficial almost entirely for Switzerland only as Germany and Italy would be vastly better off with an additional tubes of the Gotthard road tunnel instead.
So you're not only ignorant. When you are found out, you tend to panic, and change the topic... You complain about Switzerland not investing in rail, when we point out how far from reality your view of the facts appears to be you change to complaining about there not being an additional road tunnel... That's a classic debater's trick.

Sorry, but we're smarter than you. A lot it appears.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #996
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No no, the additional platforms would be added under the already underground station of the airport, Cornavin wouldn't be affected.
You're right.

However I can't keep thinking if there isn't a better alternative than demolishing all those houses behind Cornavin...

What about having most trains from France run to the (enlarged) airport station, freeing up capacity in Cornavin?
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Old December 10th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #997
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Gotthard Base Tunnel is designed for 250 km/h.

When the Gotthard Base Tunnel shall open in 2016, how far north of Erstfeld shall the railways be free of bottlenecks requiring slowdown below 250 km/h? What shall the travel time be from, say, Basel to Camorino in 2016?
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Old December 10th, 2012, 09:23 AM   #998
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Gotthard Base Tunnel is designed for 250 km/h.

When the Gotthard Base Tunnel shall open in 2016, how far north of Erstfeld shall the railways be free of bottlenecks requiring slowdown below 250 km/h? What shall the travel time be from, say, Basel to Camorino in 2016?
Interesting choice. Camorino doesn't have a station... You need to get to Bellinzona first, and change there.

Right now it's a bit under 4 hours, once an hour. Eventually it will be under 3 hours, and twice an hour, so quite an improvement.
This shows one of the improvements the base tunnel will bring: Half hourly service between the major hubs north and south of the Alps, with an hour cut from the schedule, and a timetable that makes it possible to have quick transfers in all directions at the hubs. This will mean faster trips for everyone...
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Old December 10th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #999
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Are there any plans to link Valais and Ticino with some sort of rail tunnel that doesn't require taking the slow trains to Goschenen or having to travel via Milano?

I'm talking about a Brig-Ariolo link with a high-base tunnel.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #1000
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@chornedsnorkack

The GBT will reduce travel time by 40 minutes, and the CBT by 10 minutes (roughly). It was initially planned a reduction of exactly 60 minutes but after the Cisalpino disaster it has been decided to use more realistic timetables.

@Suburbanist

There was a plan for a branch of the narrow gauge line to Airolo. For that it was planned to enlarge an access adit used to bore the 15.4 km long Furka base tunnel (to be used also by car shuttles). This adit (~6 km) is now unused and link the base tunnel with the Ticino river valley. It is highly unlikely this branch will ever be built, and a completely new and fast railway is complete science fiction, as are any new transalpine railway or motorway (at least in this century).
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