SWITZERLAND | Railways

[flierfy]

Originally Posted by StuZealand

Perhaps the countries surrounding Switzerland should start digging some kick-ass long tunnels criss-crossing underneath Switzerland.

Actually, it would be more cost-efficient to neglect the transport links to and from Switzerland. They seem to be self-sufficient the way they act. So why bothering with tunnelling them when its neighbouring countries already have direct or indirect access to sea ports.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Are there any plans to link Valais and Ticino with some sort of rail tunnel that doesn't require taking the slow trains to Goschenen or having to travel via Milano?

There might be trains Valais - Ticino via the new Mendrisio - Varese link.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

My only point is that Switzerland is being left behind in high-speed rail. You can travel in less than 3h between Roma T. and Milano C., but you can't do the same between Genève and Lugano. That should say something about the state of rail transport in Switzerland.

It says something about the need for fast travel between smaller cities being much less.
Now if Genéve and Lugano were both part of the same language zone, and if they both had populations in the millions, and if they were both part of a country with a highly centralised government structure...
And if there hadn't been that huge mountain range getting in the way of everything...
Given enough money it's probably solveable. But the most efficient way to transport people from Geneva to Lugano that absolutely need to be able to travel out and back in a day is by plane.

Switzerland is a bit different. You have to live here to understand, but the railways have a different role here. In France or Italy the main role appears to be to transport people back and forth to the capital.
Switzerland however is a decentralised country. The Gotthard route sees more passengers during weekends then during the week, which shows that it's tourists and vacationers that make the trip from the rest of Switzerland to Ticino.
I never travel to Ticino and back on the same day, and can't imagine I'll ever have the need to.
Swiss identify quite strongly with their region, and people are not expected to commute far. "Commuting distance" means 30 minutes for most Swiss. Moving to another Canton than the one you're born in is unthinkeable for many Swiss (it is for my wife).

Different problems require different solutions...

In the specific case of slower passenger trains, that is because of stupid AlpTransit, or else much of freight capacity withdrawn from rails because of higher speed would just use A2 on truck trailers.

THAT is the elephant in the room - they are slowing all passengers on the Gotthard line because of some "was on transalpine trucking"

No, the "elephant in the room" is that Trenitalia wants the trains from Switzerland to Milano to stay on their existing departure/arrival times, which means that the utility of increasing the speeds in the GBT at the moment is quite limited.
And actually I agree with Trenitalia here. The current arrival/departure times of xx:50/xx:10 are quite good, as they give good connections with onward trains.

[K_]

Originally Posted by flierfy

Actually, it would be more cost-efficient to neglect the transport links to and from Switzerland. They seem to be self-sufficient the way they act. So why bothering with tunnelling them when its neighbouring countries already have direct or indirect access to sea ports.

Ask all those trucks on the Gotthard motorway why they bother driving through Switzerland...

[K_]

Originally Posted by flierfy

You smart-arse just think that you're clever. (...) you should just get lost and leave this forum to knowledgeable people. That would be better for you and better for this forum.

The truth hurts it appears.

[Coccodrillo]

Originally Posted by K_

There might be trains Valais - Ticino via the new Mendrisio - Varese link.

Trips with a change of trains in Gallarate will certainly be possible, however I don't think there will be direct trains, at least initially.

Originally Posted by K_

No, the "elephant in the room" is that Trenitalia wants the trains from Switzerland to Milano to stay on their existing departure/arrival times, which means that the utility of increasing the speeds in the GBT at the moment is quite limited.
And actually I agree with Trenitalia here. The current arrival/departure times of xx:50/xx:10 are quite good, as they give good connections with onward trains.

The timetable of Milano-Zürich EC may change completely by the end of next year, but I can't say more.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

Trips with a change of trains in Gallarate will certainly be possible, however I don't think there will be direct trains, at least initially.

Swiss people don't mind changing trains however...

[Coccodrillo]

Neither I do, except when I'm in Italy...

[K_]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

Neither I do, except when I'm in Italy...

The last few times I was in Italy the trains were remarkably punctual. It was in fact in Switzerland that we ended up incurring a delay of half an hour...

[flierfy]

Originally Posted by K_

The truth hurts it appears.

So, you feel the pain.

[K_]

Originally Posted by flierfy

So, you feel the pain.

Yes, I feel your pain.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

Swiss people don't mind changing trains however...

The problem is not changing trains, but the quality of ride (speed, alignment, rolling stock etc) of the trains and the changing station.

SBB website, on my hypothetical Visp-Lugano query, recommends for certain periods a dreadful journey via FART between Domodossola and Locarno, e.g., it puts you on an outdated railway (Centovalli) with hundreds of tight curves, slow speeds (some sectors max speed is 60km/h for almost 8km!) etc. I'm not sure they have modernization plans for the Centovalli railway, it is more like a touristic enterprise I think,

That is the same of you wanting to drive between two relatively important cities and having to put up with a mountain pass traverse or drive 200km more to get around it. It should be noted, incidentally, there are not permanent Valais-Ticino highway connection either, though the mountain pass road there is quite modern and wide but open only late May-first heavy snowfall Oct./Nov.

[Vaud]

I don't really see your point, Suburbanist, there obviously is a limit under which huge investments make no sense, e.g. in the extreme case of having two 1,000-inhabitants villages separated by a huge range of mountains, would you build a 50km base tunnel just to link them? Obviously not... but as usual whilst the extremes are pretty clear, there are big grey areas in the middle; Valais and Ticino might be one of them, but IMHO existing and potential relationships between both cantons (each hosting a little bit over 300,000 inhabitants in their total areas, but most of valais population lives on the other extreme of the Rhône valley) do not justify such a big investment you propose... maybe if money grew on fields, but not when there are other more densely populated areas urgently requiring those investments to just keep working.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Vaud

I don't really see your point, Suburbanist, there obviously is a limit under which huge investments make no sense, e.g. in the extreme case of having two 1,000-inhabitants villages separated by a huge range of mountains, would you build a 50km base tunnel just to link them? Obviously not... but as usual whilst the extremes are pretty clear, there are big grey areas in the middle; Valais and Ticino might be one of them, but IMHO existing and potential relationships between both cantons (each hosting a little bit over 300,000 inhabitants in their total areas, but most of valais population lives on the other extreme of the Rhône valley) do not justify such a big investment you propose... maybe if money grew on fields, but not when there are other more densely populated areas urgently requiring those investments to just keep working.

There is an alternative. An alternative that the Swiss gov't relinquished when it refused to build that underground station on the Gotthard tunnel that would have allowed, at least, passengers to change trains near Sedrun. Not ideal, but with additional improvements on the line following the Rhone (there is already the Furka base tunnel there), some progress could be attained.

[Coccodrillo]

Originally Posted by K_

The last few times I was in Italy the trains were remarkably punctual. It was in fact in Switzerland that we ended up incurring a delay of half an hour...

The (ex) Cisalpino trains are a disaster (and also because of the SBB), but other trains in Switzerland are usually on time.

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

It should be noted, incidentally, there are not permanent Valais-Ticino highway connection either, though the mountain pass road there is quite modern and wide but open only late May-first heavy snowfall Oct./Nov.

A Novena/Nufenen tunnel would be nice but too expensive for the predictable traffic.

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

There is an alternative. An alternative that the Swiss gov't relinquished when it refused to build that underground station on the Gotthard tunnel that would have allowed, at least, passengers to change trains near Sedrun. Not ideal, but with additional improvements on the line following the Rhone (there is already the Furka base tunnel there), some progress could be attained.

No, it isn't an alternative. Not only because the FO line is scenic but slow, but because Sedrun shaft and rescue station were not designed to be used regularly. To quit the tunnel, passengers alighted from a train would have to travel 1 km by bus to the shaft, take a lift for 800 m, then another 2 km by bus to reach Sedrun station (not to consider that vehicles longer than a small van cannot reach that station).

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

There is an alternative. An alternative that the Swiss gov't relinquished when it refused to build that underground station on the Gotthard tunnel that would have allowed, at least, passengers to change trains near Sedrun. Not ideal, but with additional improvements on the line following the Rhone (there is already the Furka base tunnel there), some progress could be attained.

Porta Alpina would not have led to faster trip times between Valais and Ticino.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

The (ex) Cisalpino trains are a disaster (and also because of the SBB), but other trains in Switzerland are usually on time.

I know, I live here. But it was kind of ironic that on a trip from Palermo to Bern we were running exactly on time till we reached Brig...

[flierfy]

Originally Posted by flierfy

So, you feel the pain.

You really are delusional.

[steple]

Let's get back to a pleasant atmosphere now..

There are some new pictures from the construction of the DML line in Zurich:

Two new bridges between Zurich’s main station and Altstetten are helping reduce congestion on the tracks to the west of the station:
the Kohlendreieck bridge begins at the Langstrasse subway, extending to the Hard bridge, while the Letzigraben bridge spans the tracks from the Hard bridge to Altstetten.









source: pictures from http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...rlinie?fref=ts and quotes from http://www.sbb.ch/en/corporation/the...city-link.html

[steple]

Just before the main station, the cross-city link’s twin tracks end at the new Löwenstrasse through-station, which is being constructed at a depth of some 16 metres under the main station’s tracks 4 to 9.

The new Gessnerallee passage way has a number of functions:
it serves as a shopping mall as well as a new connection between the Museumstrasse and Löwenstrasse underground stations and the platforms in the main station’s main hall.