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Old January 12th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #1061
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Quote:
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The majority of recent accidents in Europe last 20 years were, indeed, in proximity of stations or switch points.
You're stating the obvious there. Of course, these are the spots with a higher probability of incidents and technical failure.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #1062
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Quote:
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You're stating the obvious there. Of course, these are the spots with a higher probability of incidents and technical failure.
My implication is that the whole discourse ECTS or other dynamic radio-based full-time monitoring control system isn't justified. So you have all these national systems in Europe (SMCT, ATB, ZVG etc), but I don't know of any of them who has dynamic control that will not allow a train to depart under no-go sign, for instance, just to hit a train couple hundred meters down the line near the interlocking junctions.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:38 PM   #1063
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In other news, the SER January edition has a small article on the new Gotthard high speed trains tender. Since the SBB has not made an announcement about this tender the SER made some calls to all the possible contenders.

According to them 4 companies have entered this tender for 29 news High Speed sets, they are.

Alstom
New version of the ETR 610 without tilt.

Siemens
Solo version of the ICx that they are building for the DB together with Bombardier. The biggest difference is that the Swiss trains will have aluminium cars instead of the German steel cars.

Talgo
A complete EMU version of their "Avril" train with non passenger power cars they had introduced at last year Innotrans in Berlin.

Stadler
This will be their first entry into this market, they will come with an upgrade of the Flirt sets they delivered to Norway that already have a max designed speed of 200 km/h. SER says that Stadler is the favorite to get this order.


Bombardier has not entered one of their products since they currently don't have a product in their catalog that could be used. Since Siemens went alone with this one they can't use their part of the ICx design. But there's still a chance that will be working on these trains since they are named as one of the possible subcontractors for electrical installation of the Talgo trains.

Other manufactures that are not mentioned are AnsaldoBreda, CAF and Hitachi. Since the article is not based on official announcements by the SBB or the manufactures it's still possible that they have submitted an offer but won't say anything about it in public.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #1064
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The V250 seems a nice product to be used in Switzerland.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #1065
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Now it's certain, Suburbanists works for AnsaldoBreda...
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:34 PM   #1066
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Quote:
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The V250 seems a nice product to be used in Switzerland.
You're joking, right?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 11:56 PM   #1067
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They can take 20 trains from the Netherlands straight away! No questions asked!
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Old January 13th, 2013, 04:37 AM   #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The V250 seems a nice product to be used in Switzerland.
LOL.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 05:44 AM   #1069
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Is it really proposed to run high speed trains through the new Gotthard tunnel? That doesn't make sense to me at all. The high speed services don't run faster than 160 km/h through the Eurotunnel. They do run fast at least outside these tubes. Something that won't happen in rural Switzerland. So why would one want to speed up services to high speeds exactly there where air resistance is the highest? Not to mention that high speed services would eat up capacity on the most expensive part of line.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 06:06 AM   #1070
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Talk about train quality.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 06:58 AM   #1071
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Quote:
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The V250 seems a nice product to be used in Switzerland.
I would rather see a M8 EMU before I see a V250 running in swissland...
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Old January 13th, 2013, 11:27 AM   #1072
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I would rather see a M8 EMU before I see a V250 running in swissland...
65 t? That hell lot even compared to ridiculously overweighted 1520 rolling stock...
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Old January 13th, 2013, 11:35 AM   #1073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Is it really proposed to run high speed trains through the new Gotthard tunnel?
The tunnel is designed for 250 km/h, the timetable was initially planend (as far I know) with one 200 km/h and one 160 km/h passenger train per hour, but now are both likely designed for 160 km/h, to increase capacity and reduce electricity costs.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The tunnel is designed for 250 km/h, the timetable was initially planend (as far I know) with one 200 km/h and one 160 km/h passenger train per hour, but now are both likely designed for 160 km/h, to increase capacity and reduce electricity costs.
Are there any early estimates for travel time between Zürich and Milan (before and after opening of Ceneri tunnel)?
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Old January 13th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #1075
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I haven't found a timetable draft, but realistic timetables are, with the CBT:

Lucerne-Lugano 2h30 > 1h30
Zürich-Lugano 2h40 > 1h40
Zürich-Milano 3h40* > 2h50
Basel-Milano via Gotthard 4h40** > 3h40
Basel-Milano via Simplon 4h10 (already shortened with the LBT)

*3h40 for Cisalpino trains and only if all goes well, most trains have 10 to 40 minutes delay - that's why Zürich-Milan travel time with AlpTransit will be longer than that initially planned
**since December 2012 there are no direct Basel-Milano trains via this route, but trips involving a change in Arth Goldau take the same time (+Cisalpino's delay)

From now until 2020 there will many different timetables because of works and the replacement of the ETR 470. These will probably be the changes:
* December 2014: withdrawal of the ETR 470, replaced by non-tilting trains
* December 2016: opening of the GBT and closure of the Zug-Arth Goldau line for refurbishment (~20' saving for Zürich, but ~40' for Lucerne)
* December 2018: reopening of the Zug-Arth Goldau line, so ~40' also for Zürich
* December 2019: opening of the CBT and final timetable

In all these timetables the times in Arth Goldau are a fixed point (xx.10 to Zürich or Lucerne-Basel, xx.50 to Lugano or Milano), except for trains to Milano which may receive a new path (likely around xx.40/xx.20).
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Old January 13th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #1076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I haven't found a timetable draft, but realistic timetables are, with the CBT:

Lucerne-Lugano 2h30 > 1h30
Zürich-Lugano 2h40 > 1h40
Zürich-Milano 3h40* > 2h50
Basel-Milano via Gotthard 4h40** > 3h40
Basel-Milano via Simplon 4h10 (already shortened with the LBT)

*3h40 for Cisalpino trains and only if all goes well, most trains have 10 to 40 minutes delay - that's why Zürich-Milan travel time with AlpTransit will be longer than that initially planned
**since December 2012 there are no direct Basel-Milano trains via this route, but trips involving a change in Arth Goldau take the same time (+Cisalpino's delay)

From now until 2020 there will many different timetables because of works and the replacement of the ETR 470. These will probably be the changes:
* December 2014: withdrawal of the ETR 470, replaced by non-tilting trains
* December 2016: opening of the GBT and closure of the Zug-Arth Goldau line for refurbishment (~20' saving for Zürich, but ~40' for Lucerne)
* December 2018: reopening of the Zug-Arth Goldau line, so ~40' also for Zürich
* December 2019: opening of the CBT and final timetable
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I didn't know at all about the temporary closure of Zug-Arth Goldau line. What kind of refurbishment is needed there?

6 years really ought to be enough to finally solve the problem with CisAlpino delays... Also it's a shame that the final 80 km between Lugano and Milan takes more than an hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In all these timetables the times in Arth Goldau are a fixed point (xx.10 to Zürich or Lucerne-Basel, xx.50 to Lugano or Milano), except for trains to Milano which may receive a new path (likely around xx.40/xx.20).
Not sure I fully understand this. Are you saying here that the time savings from the new schedule will have to be a full hour and not a bit more or a bit less?
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Old January 13th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #1077
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1) 1,7 km north of Walchwill will be doubled to allow trains every 30' to Lugano, in addition to that all tunnels and bridges will be checked and if necessary refurbished; trains will run via Rotkreuz instead (reversing there)

2) the problem are not only the ETR 470 but also the tight schedule, if they don't modify them (which should happen in December 2014) nothing will change, and the part between Lugano and Milano is one of the source of delays (also because of the custom) so one hour for that is even too short (in my opinion 1h05-1h10 would be a more realistic time)

3) no I'm not, the timetable structure north of Arth Goldau will not change (Zürich xx.09-Arth Goldau xx.48, similarly as today from Basel-Lucerne, sure departure from Zürich might be at xx.08 or xx.10, but not much different) so the trains will have to use that slot or the slot 30' after (Zürich xx.39-Arth Goldau xx.18), what will change will be on the southern side, between Arth Goldau and Milano (maybe from December 2014) with new departure/arrival minutes from Milano
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Old January 14th, 2013, 07:35 AM   #1078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In all these timetables the times in Arth Goldau are a fixed point (xx.10 to Zürich or Lucerne-Basel, xx.50 to Lugano or Milano), except for trains to Milano which may receive a new path (likely around xx.40/xx.20).
But I understood that Trenitalia wants the Gotthard trains to arrive in Milano at xx.50. That would require a 2:40 travel time on Zürich - Milano.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 10:31 AM   #1079
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As far I know, they changed their mind, provided that the new times fit in the existing or slightly modified structure.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #1080
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Quote:
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Now it's certain, Suburbanists works for AnsaldoBreda...
Actually, no. If Suburbanist worked for Ansaldo Breda he would know that Ansaldo Breda has dismantled the production line for the V250. They couldn't build another V250 even if someone wanted one...
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