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Old January 16th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #1101
Coccodrillo
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You're not even allowed to stand in first class with a second class ticket.
Until a few years ago the notice that said that had a different version in Italian. It said that with a second class ticket it was forbidden to sit in a first class coach (thus without forbidding to stand), while in the other languages it said it was forbidden to remain.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #1102
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I haven't found a timetable draft, but realistic timetables are, with the CBT:

Zürich-Lugano 2h40 > 1h40
Zürich-Milano 3h40* > 2h50
Unfortunately, your times are too optimistic. The most recent numbers I heard were Zurich-Lugano in 1h50 and from that would mean Zurich-Milano in about 2h55; the slower times mainly because the speed in the tunnel was reduced to 160 km/h.

This is very bad news for the international traffic. Since the timetables north of Gotthard cannot be changed, the trains will arrive in Milano at about five minutes past the full hour. Most connecting trains are already gone by that time, in some cases you lose a full hour waiting for the connecting train which completely negates any gain made using the base tunnel.

On the other hand, there's good news for the national traffic. Since the tunnel trains drive more slowly, they steal less capacity from goods trains. Therefore, a train can be run every half hour instead of every hour. Also, the slower timetable means that the trains will be crossing in Lugano at :00, whereby a connecting train or bus can arrive just before :00 and allow ideal connecting times in both directions.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #1103
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Old January 16th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #1104
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@alphorn: that's sad...but if it is better to promise a travel time of 2h55 to Milan, but always respecting that, than promising 2h40, and arriving 10 to 15 minutes late 90% of the trips (like today).

A solution might be leaving Zürich around .30, like Zürich 7.39-Milan 10.35. That should be possible, as I heard that the arrival/departure minutes in Milano will be changed, and as SBB will offer an half-hourly service to Lugano (so there will be two slots from Zürich, not just one like today + the slot for slow extra trains at .31). However, an arrival in Milan at .35 would still mean a 30'-45' wait for most connecting trains (that leaves at .05 to .20), like until 2008, when the EC arrived in Milan at .35 and left it at .25.

To compare, actual timetables are like Zürich 7.09-Milan 10.50 (with nearly every day with a 10-15 minutes delay). So the time saving would still be a full hour (if one doesn't have to take another train in Milan).
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Old January 17th, 2013, 12:22 AM   #1105
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Too bad it can't be perfectly aligned with connecting services both nationally and internationally... It is a, however, a fair assumption that most passengers arriving from north Switzerland will stay in the city itself.

By the way is there a more local service between Lugano and Milan?
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Old January 17th, 2013, 01:19 AM   #1106
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There was TILO...

Milan is a big market on itself. No need to keep worried with connecting services coming from Switzerland. Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly beacuse it is much faster anyway.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #1107
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Too bad it can't be perfectly aligned with connecting services both nationally and internationally... It is a, however, a fair assumption that most passengers arriving from north Switzerland will stay in the city itself.
I remember I heard that 30% of the passengers of trains that continued after Milan (like the Zürich-Florence) remained on board in Milan. However I cannot say how much passengers transfer there (but a short connecting time is important to be competitive on trips like Lugano-Parma or Como-Brescia).

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By the way is there a more local service between Lugano and Milan?
There are the S10 TILO Bellinzona-Lugano-Chiasso-Como and S11 Chiasso-Como-Milano Porta Garibaldi, each every 30 to 60 minutes, but stopping at all station and with a waiting time of 20' between them they are not an alternative for Lugano-Milano (which it's done in 2h rather than 1h).

There are then semi-fast TILO services Milano Centrale-Bellinzona, taking 25 minutes more than the EC CIS. They leave or reach Milano Centrale at the same minutes of the EC CIS when these don't run, giving sometimes a departure every hour (from 13.10 to 20.10, and arrivals from 7.50 to 12.50, on other times there are holes of 2 or 3 hours without fast trains). Some of these services (Milan 13.10, 18.10, 20.10) replaces EC CIS services which have been canceled or were never born, but where planned in Cisalpino's plan.

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Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly because it is much faster anyway.
I'm not so sure airplanes are faster on Lucerne-Bologna or Lucerne-Florence, especially in the future with AlpTransit.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #1108
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I'm not so sure airplanes are faster on Lucerne-Bologna or Lucerne-Florence, especially in the future with AlpTransit.
I'd say that even now Luzern - Milano - somewhere in Italy is faster by train for any place less than 2 hours from Milano.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #1109
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There was TILO...

Milan is a big market on itself. No need to keep worried with connecting services coming from Switzerland. Few people would travel to Firenze or Venezia by train from Switzerland, but rather fly beacuse it is much faster anyway.
Don't underestimate the mindshare rail has in Switzerland. For any destination in Northern Italy the train is the first thing that will be considered. Speed isn't the only consideration when choosing a means of transportation.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #1110
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they're even integrating a Starbucks stand in the IC2000 trainsets.
Shame, their particular brand of over-roasted mud is not what I'd want to find in europe. May as well drink instant coffee from Aldi.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #1111
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Any preliminary info on circumstances of accident, such as whether and which train violated its signal? Apparently the accident happened near a switch point.
Preliminary info has now been published.
http://www.uvek.admin.ch/dokumentati...e&msg-id=47455

Short version: The northbound S33 train left Neuhausen to early, and passed a signal at danger. It should have waited till the southbound S11 had entered track two. It hit the S11 as it was crossing over to the other track. At the moment of collision the S11 was still doing 37 km/h, the S33 only 1.2 km/h (I suspect the train protection system had initiated an emergency braking).
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Old January 17th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #1112
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There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?
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Old January 17th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #1113
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Don't underestimate the mindshare rail has in Switzerland. For any destination in Northern Italy the train is the first thing that will be considered. Speed isn't the only consideration when choosing a means of transportation.
I have a couple of Italian friends from Florence area now living in Basel. They almost always either fly or drive. Flying is preferred if traveling alone, driving if traveling with kids.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #1114
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There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?
It isn't true. In a few words and simplifying a little bureaucratic details, the ministry of transport wrote a list of railway which cover less than 50% of their operating costs with tickets, and said that every one of them should be checked in detail to decide if it can be replaced by buses or not. However, this list leaked to newspapers without further explanation and these said that the government wanted to close these lines, which is not true.

In this list there are also many S-Bahn lines even in Bern and Zürich (because even if they transport a lot of people they cover less than 50% of their cost), but also some new tramway lines (like line 12 in Zürich, which was built from scratch and with many viaducts and tunnels just 3 years ago, and will certainly not be closed).
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:30 AM   #1115
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A solution might be leaving Zürich around .30, like Zürich 7.39-Milan 10.35.
The problem with that is that some connecting trains only arrive hourly, for example the one from Stuttgart. Not a big deal in Zurich, but quite a problem for the Basel-Lugano(-Milano) trains. Those, I assume, will continue to run only hourly, which would mean they lose good connections to the hourly arrivals from Germany and Delemont. This is quite relevant because those trains are currently the fastest connections from those places to Lucerne. Connections like Karlsruhe-Lugano would lose half an hour.

In the very long run, though, all will be fine. South of Lugano, there are still some sections with gradients too steep for single traction goods trains so a new tunnel needs to be built. That will save 13 minutes, so with a :00 departure in Lugano the trains would arrive in Milano at :50 - exactly the right time. But that won't happen before 2030.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 02:09 AM   #1116
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ROFL, traffic from Germany to Italy by train is probably very light to be considered on long connections. I doubt there is any sizeable market Stuttgart Hbf-Milano Centrale for instance.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:23 AM   #1117
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There is a news that 175 trains will be replaced with buses in SWITZERLAND - http://cfts.org.ua/news/48402, is there any more details about that?
This is mostly a case of journalists completely misunderstanding things.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:26 AM   #1118
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I have a couple of Italian friends from Florence area now living in Basel. They almost always either fly or drive. Flying is preferred if traveling alone, driving if traveling with kids.
They're Italians. Swiss are a bit different.

Looking at the current prices flying is about twice as expensive for a time savings of about 2 hours... I would not consider flying.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #1119
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ROFL, traffic from Germany to Italy by train is probably very light to be considered on long connections. I doubt there is any sizeable market Stuttgart Hbf-Milano Centrale for instance.
I was not saying there was (even though there used to be direct trains!). The problem are destinations in the middle. They work fine from Zurich because trains will run every half hour, but probably not from Basel. If the hourly trains Basel-Luzern-Lugano(-Milano) start half an hour later, the connections from Karlsruhe, Mulhouse and Delemont will lose about 15 minutes to Lucerne and half an hour to Lugano and Milano.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #1120
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Why not put other trains from Lugano to Basel via Luzern then?
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