daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 6th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #1201
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,175
Likes (Received): 62814

The old Furka route has only been restored as a museum line with steamlocos and old cars. .

Since last summer there is the "Swiss Alps Classic Express" a tourist train with that runs the complete old route of the Glacier Express including the old Furka line. On Furka Bergstrecke the train is hauled by a MGB HGm 4/4 diesel loco.

This means that in theory the old route can also be used by regular trains in the case the tunnel is closed. But there is serious limitation to the length and weight of these trains since there's no wires and the infrastructure is not up to the current standards. The modern Glacier Express won't be able to use this route.

If they will use the old line it will probably only be a shuttle service that connects to the regular MGB trains in Oberwald and Realp.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 7th, 2013, 03:05 AM   #1202
StuZealand
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Palmerston North
Posts: 234
Likes (Received): 111

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
The Conseil National has approved the CHF6.4 billion to be spent on rail infrastructure. The financing will be done, among other sources, by incrementing the VAT by 0.1% from 2018 to 2030.

The total amount spent on rail projects will be 7.5 billion, though, since the 1.1 billion spent in Lausanne alone will be financed through the money approved for Rail2000 in 1998 but not yet used.

The 6.4 billion will be used among other things for Leman2030 including the extension of Geneva's train station, for which the decision on whether it's best to build it underground or on the surface (by destroying some buildings around) will be made public on the 1st of July, although a referendum in canton Geneva is threatening any decision; the fund will only finance 790 million though, the estimated cost for the surface option, so any other variant, if it turns to be more expensive and people vote for it, will need to be financed solely by Geneva.
Does Swiss Federal Railways make a profit, and/or is it required to make a profit? And if it does, is any of the money reinvested back into the network?

If not, does any large capital expenditure like you have posted about simply come from some form of taxation?
StuZealand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #1203
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

they do: 422 Mio CHF profits in 2012 and 339 in 2011. They're owned by the confederation so it really doesn't matter whether they use the money for investments or distribute them as dividends, since infatructure expense will be also covered by taxes at the end.
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #1204
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
The Conseil National has approved the CHF6.4 billion to be spent on rail infrastructure. The financing will be done, among other sources, by incrementing the VAT by 0.1% from 2018 to 2030.

The total amount spent on rail projects will be 7.5 billion, though, since the 1.1 billion spent in Lausanne alone will be financed through the money approved for Rail2000 in 1998 but not yet used.
There are two separate groups of projects.

The ZEB/SIF was previously called "Rail 2000, 2° step" and includes projects for 5.4 billions, and it is financed, with openings until 2015. As far I know the money for Lausanne comes from that group, as the Chestenberg tunnel project (between Olten and Zürich) has been delayed and replaced by Lausanne's node.

The FABI/FAIF projects account for 6.4 billions in the first step to be completed also by around 2025 (initially the Federal Council proposed 3.5 billions). This was initially defined as "Rail 2000, 3° step". It includes a new financing system for rail projects (to be used also for the ZEB/SIF) and will become reality only if it is approved by voters likely in 2014. It is a response to the public transport lobby VCS-ATE-ATA's initiative to use directly half of fuel taxes for rail. Voters will have to choose between the initiative, the government's proposal or none (technically, we will vote yes or no to each proposal, and then which one of the two we prefer in the case both are accepted).

In details: http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04053/i..._JjKbNoKSn6A-- and http://www.bav.admin.ch/fabi/04053/index.html?lang=de (DE-FR-IT)

Besides that, 1 billion will be invested to increase clearance on the Gotthard line, for a total of 12.8 billions (in addition to cantonal rail projects like the CEVA, maintenance of existing infrastructure and rolling stock, which are financed separately). The Gotthard line works include replacing or making tunnels higher and are considered a priority (the biggest single project is the new 2.6 km Bözberg tunnel). Also works in Italy will be financed, as a loan or more likely as a gift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
If they will use the old line it will probably only be a shuttle service that connects to the regular MGB trains in Oberwald and Realp.
In the period around 2020 the Furka base tunnel will be renovated, and closed for some months, so it is possible we will again see a limited regular service on the pass line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
they do: 422 Mio CHF profits in 2012 and 339 in 2011. They're owned by the confederation so it really doesn't matter whether they use the money for investments or distribute them as dividends, since infrastructure expense will be also covered by taxes at the end.
Beside that, there are also subsides for regional traffic (not for "long" distance).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; June 7th, 2013 at 06:11 PM.
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2013, 12:33 AM   #1205
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Some photos of the new Mendrisio-Varese (alias Stabio-Arcisate) line: http://www.cdt.ch/ticino-e-regioni/c...di-stabio.html

The old Stabio station is here: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Stabio...o,+Ticino&z=18

The new line diverges shortly after towards Arcisate. The line was planned to open in December 2014, but works in Italy have been delayed and it is not known when they will finish. The Swiss part will (re)open for political reasons on time, but it will be of little use since that first section will be short (3.8 km) and will add only one station to the network. Stabio has only 4.500 inhabitants but it is hoped to attract commuter via a park&ride. I wonder how will this line be served in this first phase, if with direct trains from Bellinzona, or Como-Chiasso as will be when the line will be fully opened or if with a shuttle from Mendrisio.

There was a line, opened just from 1926 to 1928, from Mendrisio, Stabio and Castellanza in Italy, but the border section has been closed by the fascist regime just after two years. The two sections continued to operate until at least the 1950s, and later for freight only. A tourist service operates from Mendrisio to Malnate, on a section of line located also in Italy but with no link to other lines.

The two lines shares the first 4 km section that is being double tracked and electrified (it had never been closed to freight). Current will change from 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC to 3 kV DC at the border.









__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #1206
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

Today the CFF, the city and canton of Geneva as well as the confederation have finally released the report with the study on the adequacy of the surface vs underground versions for the extension of Geneva's main railway station.

This report was ordered since the initially preferred version of the CFF, the surface version, has generated some opposition from the local inhabitants since it meant tearing down some buildings around. Nevertheless, the CFF preferred that since according to them this variant would cost 790 million francs, which was supposed to be cheaper than the 2nd option; Geneva at first remained silent but given the opposition it also started complaining for the fact that the 790 million only accounted for the construction of the new tracks, but Geneva would have had to pay all the urban modifications, which meant that the price difference between both versions maybe wasn't that big. In any case the CFF couldn't provide a figure for the total cost of the underground version, and so finally it was agreed to produce an independent report clarifying which version was better.

The conclusion as presented today is that both the cantonal and federal authorities prefer the underground version, mainly because it also allows an easier extension in the future compared to a surface version whose extension would be almost impossible.

The cost is estimated at 1,200 million, and therefore Geneva will have to pay 400 million since the confederation will only contribute 790 million through FAIF (although this has yet to be approved).

The best option chosen from the expert consists in building the new tracks and platform underneath the french section. That is hardly any news since the other side is more constrained by the shopping mall.

The official news release by CFF: http://www.cff.ch/groupe/medias/comm...-7-0507_1.html

Initially the CFF proposed a figure of 1,700 millions for the underground version, which clearly shows they just mentioned a random figure. However Geneva already said that it would have had to pay 500 million for all the urban rebuilding. That means the underground version is actually cheaper.

Some images:




In red, the proposed underground extension, in blue the future potential extension:


The schema of utilisation:

As seen, initially the new tracks would only be used for trains incoming from Lausanne and going to the airport. In the future that could be extended for all trains departing to Switzerland, whilst the CEVA could have its own dedicated tracks.

This can be better seen here:
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!

Suburbanist, Bart_LCY, ko7, Coccodrillo liked this post

Last edited by Vaud; July 5th, 2013 at 11:46 PM.
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #1207
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Is it not already too late for major changes?
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #1208
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Is it not already too late for major changes?
Not at all, the canton still has 2 years.

As for the 400 millions Geneva would have to contribute, I read yesterday in the newspaper the following: If the surface version had been chosen, the CFF would have had to build by 2030 two sauts-de-mouton (flying junction). This won't be necessary with the underground version, therefore on the long-term both versions would cost the same to the confederation; apparently 300 million have already been budgeted for the saut-de-mouton in Châtelaine which will be no longer necessary, so the cantonal authorities are fairly confident that they won't need to make any major contribution; they might also try to force the city of Geneva to contribute something in case there's some amount left to pay since the urban rebuilding would have run on the city's budget.

I explain this because this will require Genevan voters approval, so the lower the price the more likely it is for the project to be given green light.
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2013, 11:57 PM   #1209
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 755
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
All the projects:

Thanks for the pic, Vaud. (Er... Vaud? Are you from Lausanne?) I have a question, though: is any of this connected with what we can call "highspeed rail"? I seem to remember that, in earlier Swiss discussions, attempts to use FinOV funds and other railway money to link up with the Gotthardt and Loetschberg tunnels were blocked. They were blocked by Christoph Blocher (next time the Swiss have a problem with exports they should export this "man"....) and his followship of ayatollahs in Central Switzerland. I fear a bit, from your map, that the compas is still pointed in that direction? Commuter rails in Toggenburg - but no real, international train lines?
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #1210
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143

What is the expected final duration between Geneva and Zurich? it takes actually 2 h 38 m.......
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2013, 11:04 PM   #1211
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

It should decrease to around 2h15, but not in the first phase of the FAIF project (the one presented by Vaud). Note however that most traffic in Switzerland is between nearby cities, so a no-stop Zürich-Geneva train would not carry a lot of people even if these are the first and second cities by size. Remember also that there are 3+1 official languages and this reduces a little traffic between regions (although not that much like between France and Italy via the Alps, for instance). Most traffic (road and rail) is between Geneva and Lausanne, and in the Bern-Basel-Zürich triangle.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #1212
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It should decrease to around 2h15, but not in the first phase of the FAIF project (the one presented by Vaud). Note however that most traffic in Switzerland is between nearby cities, so a no-stop Zürich-Geneva train would not carry a lot of people even if these are the first and second cities by size. Remember also that there are 3+1 official languages and this reduces a little traffic between regions (although not that much like between France and Italy via the Alps, for instance). Most traffic (road and rail) is between Geneva and Lausanne, and in the Bern-Basel-Zürich triangle.
What about traffic from Lyon and sorrounding regions towards Zurich, is it minimum, also? How many connections by plane exits between Lyon and Zurich?
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #1213
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

With http://www.skyscanner.ch/ I found 4 Zürich-Lyon flights for tomorrow.

I don't know the traffic but by train going via the LGV Rhin-Rhône and Basel is certainly quicker.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 02:57 AM   #1214
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
With http://www.skyscanner.ch/ I found 4 Zürich-Lyon flights for tomorrow.

I don't know the traffic but by train going via the LGV Rhin-Rhône and Basel is certainly quicker.
Well Lyon Zurich is served by a train with transfer in Geneva, unsless i am wrong. If there are 4 planes, that is a traffic that could be taken by the train if the internal trip in Switzerland gets better and the train is a direct train, with stops but no transfers. Probably the 20 minutes that can be achived with the upgrade of the line Geneva Zurich that you indicated and the lack of transfer will allow the train to take half of the passengers of the planes, because the time will be aproximately 4 hours wich is a competitive time with the plane, if there are no transfers.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 07:09 AM   #1215
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post

Well Lyon Zurich is served by a train with transfer in Geneva, unsless i am wrong. If there are 4 planes, that is a traffic that could be taken by the train if the internal trip in Switzerland gets better and the train is a direct train, with stops but no transfers. Probably the 20 minutes that can be achived with the upgrade of the line Geneva Zurich that you indicated and the lack of transfer will allow the train to take half of the passengers of the planes, because the time will be aproximately 4 hours wich is a competitive time with the plane, if there are no transfers.
Removing the transfer would not make a big difference. I don't think there ever will be direct trains from Zürich to Lyon. Its after all impossible to have direct trains to everywhere. However, a bit of speeding up on both legs, and tighter connections in Geneve might indeed be achieveable.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #1216
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,050
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Removing the transfer would not make a big difference. I don't think there ever will be direct trains from Zürich to Lyon. Its after all impossible to have direct trains to everywhere. However, a bit of speeding up on both legs, and tighter connections in Geneve might indeed be achieveable.
This is not everywhere to everywhere, it is Lyon to Zurich, which has 4 daily connections, already, besides such a train with stop in Geneva will make both services, Lyon Geneva and Geneva Zurich, without spending more money, this is exactly what they do in every country, to make long trips as a combination of others, at no additional cost.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1217
Vaud
Registered User
 
Vaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canterbury\Genève
Posts: 837
Likes (Received): 1582

I also fly -albeit rarely- between... Geneva and Zurich, even though there are plenty of trains. The reason is obviously the tranfers - for instance, those who go from Lyon to Zurich airport to fly with Swiss to San Francisco will keep flying between both cities, no matter how many trains connect both cities. That probably accounts for at least half the pasangers of those 4 flights, and 2 flights do not justify a direct train connection.

Better coordination of trains in Geneva would be helpful though and that would cost nothing. However I doubt it would make much of a difference - Zurich and Lyon are sufficiently apart to justify air connections, unless both were fully connected by TGV, but prospects are that's not gonna happen ever.

It would be interesting to discuss whether the CFF could do something like SNCF or DB and be a partner of Swiss to bring connecting passangers to Zurich, though.
__________________
j' les trains
« Plus d'entrain pour la Suisse »
Visitez le Forum Suisse!
Vaud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #1218
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

How well connected is Zürich Flughafen by rail from places other than Zürich? More like Frankfurt or Schiphol or more like München or Malpensa (only S-Bahn/regio trains)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #1219
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Zürich airport is served by all InterCity and InterRegio trains going to eastern Switzerland (Kreuzlingen/Romanshorn/St Gallen), and all of these come from the two east-west routes (Geneva-Zürich via Bern or Biel-Bienne, and the branch from Valais-Wallis). In addition there are an hourly train to Lucerne, one to Basel and S-Bahn trains. Basically all major Swiss cities have at least an hourly direct train to Zürich Flughafen, except Sion, Delémont, Chur, and the three in Ticino (Bellinzona/Locarno/Lugano), and all of them except Lugano (and maybe Chur?) are under 50.000 inhabitants in the agglomeration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
This is not everywhere to everywhere, it is Lyon to Zurich, which has 4 daily connections, already, besides such a train with stop in Geneva will make both services, Lyon Geneva and Geneva Zurich, without spending more money, this is exactly what they do in every country, to make long trips as a combination of others, at no additional cost.
It is not easy as it seems, as Lyon-Geneva trains are often a single 4-car single deck EMU, while Geneva-Zürich trains are either 7 or 14 car single deck tilting EMUs (every 60' via Biel-Bienne) or 10-13 double deck coaches (every 60' via Bern, they might reach 16 coaches in the next decade). So it wouldn't be easy to build a compromise vehicle adapted to both services (it doesn't exist now), and remember that SBB's double deck trains existing or on order are too high to run in France.

(note that trains from Lyon are sometimes composed by three 4-car EMUs, that in Bellegarde split, likely to two to Annemasse and one to Geneva)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #1220
webeagle12
Registered User
 
webeagle12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Albany
Posts: 1,744
Likes (Received): 449

SBB launches Re460 overhaul programme

SWISS Federal Railways (SBB) is planning heavy overhauls on its entire fleet of 119 Re460 electric locomotives by 2022 in a SFr 230m ($US 238m) programme which will be carried out at the SBB workshops in Yverdon-les-Bains.

Preparations are already underway, and the first prototype is due to be finished at the end of 2015. In addition to a full repaint and installation of an upgraded driver's cab, the locomotives will be equipped with new power converters to reduce energy consumption and new compressors.

The 200km/h four-axle Re460 has been the backbone of SBB's long-distance fleet since the early 1990s. Built by a Swiss consortium of SLM and ABB the locomotives were introduced as part of the Rail 2000 project to modernise train services and increase capacity on the Swiss mainline network. The refurbishment programme is expected to extend their operating life by 20 years.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542
__________________

Deadeye Reloaded liked this post
webeagle12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
basel, zurich

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium