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Old March 24th, 2014, 09:27 PM   #1521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And I really wonder it it's money well spent...

I think SBB should really consider building a newstation north of Luzern. (In Emmenbrücke for example), and make that the hub.
It was one of the options that were evaluated, but then rejected in favour of the 4-track through station under the existing one.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Why not make Luzern a through-station, with a tunnel under the Rëuss?
That's what is planned, but in the first phase it will be accessible only from Rotkreuz, with a tunnel under the lake where it flows into the Reuss river. It would then be used by IR and S trains coming from Zug and Zürich, while Basel-Luzern-Lugano-Milano trains would use the street level tracks.

Later a connection to Emmenbrücke would be built, allowing thorugh trains.

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Because it cost a lot of money...
But it is needed, the current station handle around 700 standard gauge trains a day and is near its limit. It is possible the first phase of the through station will eb included in the second step of FABI.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 09:41 PM   #1522
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Basel-Lugano trains are standing in Luzern for 10-15 min, a through station would probably shave up to half an hour from the travel time between those two places.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 10:52 PM   #1523
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It is possible, not because reversing the dircection of a train is slow, but because the existing station and the Swiss network in general is so congested that it would be difficult if not impossible to change the timetable of Basel-Lugano trains (and no, Suburbanist, destroying all railways and trains except Basel-Lugano ones is not what Swiss wants, included those who use Basel-Lugano to make connections, and yes, building more tracks would be nice but no, it is not enough wanting more tracks, you need also money to pay for them).
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Old March 24th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #1524
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Build a station at Rotsee much cheaper.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #1525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It is possible, not because reversing the dircection of a train is slow, but because the existing station and the Swiss network in general is so congested that it would be difficult if not impossible to change the timetable of Basel-Lugano trains (and no, Suburbanist, destroying all railways and trains except Basel-Lugano ones is not what Swiss wants, included those who use Basel-Lugano to make connections, and yes, building more tracks would be nice but no, it is not enough wanting more tracks, you need also money to pay for them).
That is so, but sometimes a money for more tracks or tunnels is found as seems to be the case here. Eliminating stations where trains have to reverse is a good way to increase a capacity of rail networks and more capacity is certainly badly needed.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #1526
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Build a station at Rotsee much cheaper.
It is cheaper, but less useful. It would be less central, and would need the construction of tracks (likely all in tunnel) to link it to three lines (Wolhusen, Brünig, Küssnacht-Immensee) rather to just one (in the first phase) or two (in the second phase). It would also need more tracks rather than just four as the planned underground station.

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That is so, but sometimes a money for more tracks or tunnels is found as seems to be the case here. Eliminating stations where trains have to reverse is a good way to increase a capacity of rail networks and more capacity is certainly badly needed.
I agree, I just said that the 15' minutes wait for Basel-Lugano trains is there not because a train cannot reverse faster (it could do so in ~5' or even 3), but because it is difficult to find an entry slot near an exit slot, both compatible to every other conflict from Lucerne to Basel and from Lucerne to Milan. That's why a new Lucerne station is needed, but wanting it is not enough, you need also money.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:09 AM   #1527
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I agree, I just said that the 15' minutes wait for Basel-Lugano trains is there not because a train cannot reverse faster (it could do so in ~5' or even 3), but because it is difficult to find an entry slot near an exit slot, both compatible to every other conflict from Lucerne to Basel and from Lucerne to Milan. That's why a new Lucerne station is needed, but wanting it is not enough, you need also money.
The problem is bigger than that. In Basel, the train cannot leave before :00 or :30 because all connecting trains arrive just before that time. In Arth-Goldau, the train has to arrive before :15 or :45 because all connecting trains leave just after that time. So a good travel time between Basel is either under 1:45 or under 1:15. Currently it is 1:40, so even if you reduce the dwell time in Luzern to 2 minutes we're still at 1:29, far more than the about 1:10 needed.

What can be done in the far future (probably 2040-2050) is accelerating Basel-Zurich to under 45 Minutes. Then, all trains can leave 15 minutes later in Basel and the Gotthard trains arrives in Luzern at :15 but still departs at :18 just like now.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:12 AM   #1528
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Y'all speak as if cities were separated by clock, not by distance
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:58 AM   #1529
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Y'all speak as if cities were separated by clock, not by distance
They are. No matter how fast trains run: If there's a train every hour, the trains cross at :00 and :30. If there's a train every 30 minutes, the trains cross at :00, :15, :30 and :45. Trains should always cross at a stop in a major railway station, because only then connecting trains can reach the trains in both directions.

In Switzerland, the lines between cities were upgraded just enough so trains can reach the next big city within an hour so they can cross there and offer connections everywhere. Currently, 8 major stations offer such connections (yellow=:00 and :30, orange=:15 and :45) with 5 more to come within 5 years.



The advantage of this system is that smaller cities benefit from fast lines as well because they get connecting trains with very short changeover times. The drawback is that accelerations must happen in increments of at least 15 minutes (or even 30 minutes for hourly trains).
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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:23 AM   #1530
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Won't there need to be some major timetable alterations on this particular route anyway when the new tunnel comes into operation?

Do the next 5 stations include Geneva? It would only have to be 5 min faster to fit within 30 min from Lausanne. Although there it maybe doesn't matter so much with traffic being as dense as it is.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #1531
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They have to meet at Arth-Goldau to interchange from the Basle to the Zurich-Train.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #1532
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In an other order of things: The CFF have presented their 2013 results. They have achieved for the first time an average of 1 million passengers per day on the network. Also, for the first time in 40 years, the cargo division has also posted a positive financial result (+15 MCHF, up from -66 MCHF in 2012)

Source: http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/cff-transpo...story/18235111
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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:49 PM   #1533
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1 million passenger-trips per day or 1 million different passengers boarding trains each day? How many times is a person who take a round-trip somewhere counted?
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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:56 PM   #1534
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Do the next 5 stations include Geneva?
I don't think for Geneva it is particularly important. The schedule matters for connections, but the only connections you can have in Geneva are for french trains, which obviously do not follow l'horaire cadencé. Furthermore most important destinations are served by direct trains: all Lake Geneva area (Nyon, Gland, Rolle, Morges, Lausanne, Vevey, Montreux...), Saint-Gall via Neuchâtel and via Lausanne, Basel, Lucerne, Brig, and all the intermediate stations between them. For me as a resident of Geneva what matters are the synchronized schedules in places such as Bern (to go to Interlaken/Thun) or Zurich (for Ticino/Grisons/Schaffhausen).

With the CEVA, Annemasse will be directly served by the Lake Geneva RegioExpress, but even then the coodination won't be really important given that apart from the RE there'll be plenty of RER between Cornavin and Annemasse.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:02 PM   #1535
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Isn't travel to Brig (or Italy) from Geneve faster via Bern than via the slow line in Valais?
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #1536
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Are there any plans to disentangle the mess of rail lines around station Olten, with new flyovers? And also maybe a new station on a cross-shape...
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #1537
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Quote:
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1 million passenger-trips per day or 1 million different passengers boarding trains each day? How many times is a person who take a round-trip somewhere counted?

Somebody might be able to shed some light on the issue, the annual report from the CFF (download here) says the following:

Quote:
En 2013, les CFF ont transporté plus d’un million de passagers chaque jour (+3,7 %) et le nombre de voyageurs-kilomètres a atteint 17,8 milliards (+1,3 %). Cette progression s’explique en premier lieu par l’élargissement de l’offre en Suisse romande, notamment les liaisons au départ de Lausanne vers Genève et le Valais, mais aussi par l’ouverture de la ligne TGV Lyria Genève–Marseille et l’introduction de la cadence semihoraireentre Zurich et Schaffhouse
Honestly, I would say a a commuter travelling daily from Lausanne to Geneva would count twice, but I haven't found any methodological explanation.

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Isn't travel to Brig (or Italy) from Geneve faster via Bern than via the slow line in Valais?
No, using the line Lausanne-Montreux-Brig is 1 hour faster (using the EC's Geneva-Milano/Venezia), 1h55 against 2h55. The Lötschberg Base Tunnel might be fast, but the line Lausanne-Bern isn't, and the line Bern-LBT isn't either, and if you look at a map of Switzerland you'll see that distances are also higher.
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Last edited by Vaud; March 25th, 2014 at 05:12 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:22 PM   #1538
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I haven't heard of any such plans. However, there has been a project idea how Switzerland could look like in 2048 done by students of ETH. They showed how network cities could look like and did this model for Olten station.


Apart from that, SBB is building another 2 tracks between Aarau and Däniken with the new Eppenbergtunnel.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 12:31 AM   #1539
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Won't there need to be some major timetable alterations on this particular route anyway when the new tunnel comes into operation?
No, the changes are mainly south of the Gotthard base tunnel. The north stays the same except for being changed by 30 minutes.

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Do the next 5 stations include Geneva? It would only have to be 5 min faster to fit within 30 min from Lausanne. Although there it maybe doesn't matter so much with traffic being as dense as it is.
No, that would be too expensive and there a few trains that could be meaningfully be connected to. Here's the future of the timetable:

Most of this will be finished in 2019 except the node in Delemont and the reduced travel time to Biel so Biel remains at 15/45. After 2019, there will be no major changes for a long time since one would have to reduce travel times from 60 to 45 minutes at some section which is hard, especially if the rolling stock can only do 200 km/h and buying new rolling stock for just one accelerated section (and running it below top speed most of the time) is uneconomical.

Not shown here, by the way, are about 30 smaller stations where crossing local trains meet buses from all directions at :00 :15 :30 or :45.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:08 AM   #1540
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What's the reason behind Lugano? For the same reason as Geneva, I don't know why making Lugano part of the horaire cadencé (sorry what's the name in english?) is worth for
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