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Old March 26th, 2014, 05:31 AM   #1541
alphorn
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What's the reason behind Lugano? For the same reason as Geneva, I don't know why making Lugano part of the horaire cadencé (sorry what's the name in english?) is worth for
The name is "interval timetable", but that's incomplete, not every interval timetable lets trains meet in stations. That is called "Integraler Taktfahrplan" in German, I think there's no term for that in English.

The main reason for Lugano: It's practically free. The travel time from Zurich will be just below two hours so the trains meet automatically in Lugano. Also, if you have a node in Lugano, the trains from Ponte Tresa can offer connections with low waiting times in both directions. Same goes for regional buses. Finally, such timetables are easier to remember; people just have to go to the train station at the top of the hour and can go wherever they want.

Originally, by the way, the node in Lugano was not planned. The trains to Milano should have been faster between Zurich and Lugano (200 km/h in the Gotthard base tunnel, less reserve time) and would have left Lugano for Milano at :55. But the planned 2h40 from Zurich to Milano seemed unrealistic because of the bad punctuality in Italy and would have cost too much capacity in the tunnel. Therefore, the trains run slower but there will be a train from Zurich to Lugano every 30 minutes .
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Old March 26th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #1542
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The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period.

Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed.

60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 05:54 AM   #1543
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Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?
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Old March 26th, 2014, 08:20 AM   #1544
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The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period. Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed. 60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.
71 minutes would be artificial. 60 minutes us not. Anyway, I bet that if you ran some computer simulation to find out the most optimal interval on the current Swiss network the answer would be 60 minutes...

What matters is that the interval is the same across the whole network. Preferably Europe wide. And Europe wide thee merging standard is 60 minutes. I don't think that changing that would be possible.

What are you going to propose next? Changing the length of the meter as it is entirely artificial and a more efficient length can surely be found?
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Old March 26th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #1545
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Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?
No. It wouldn't have been faster.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 09:57 AM   #1546
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I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished?

It's a pity punctuality in Milan area is an unsolvable problem. Those tunnels had a potential for a greater time reduction. Maybe some day...
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #1547
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The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #1548
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The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side.
A full HSL is not needed to improve punctuality.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 06:23 PM   #1549
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Isn't travel to Brig (or Italy) from Geneve faster via Bern than via the slow line in Valais?
Actually the Geneve - Brig line is one of the faster lines in Switzerland.

Average speed for the Geneve - Milano EC is 105 kph on the Geneve - Brig section, 90 kph on Brig - Domodossola and 109 kph on Domodossola - Milano...
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Old March 26th, 2014, 06:23 PM   #1550
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The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.
Do you think this money will be well spent?
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Old March 26th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #1551
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I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished?
The interim solution also needs to take in to account that the railway line on the Eastern shores of lake Zug will be closed for two years. All trains will be routed via Rotkreuz and reverse there. Thus in the beginning most of the time gains won't be realized anyway.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 07:20 PM   #1552
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Do you think this money will be well spent?
I'm all for new high speed lines and base tunnels. The Torino-Lyon HSL will put Torino, Milano and with a bit of stretch Bologna, Verona, Reggio Emilia, Brescia within reach of both Southern France and Paris.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 09:21 PM   #1553
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The interim solution also needs to take in to account that the railway line on the Eastern shores of lake Zug will be closed for two years. All trains will be routed via Rotkreuz and reverse there. Thus in the beginning most of the time gains won't be realized anyway.
Can you remind us the reason for that?
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Old March 26th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #1554
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The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side. They are, albeit begrudgingly, spending money on a connection Torino-Lyon that has far less traffic, but since it will be HSL, it attracts money as a flagship high-speed project.
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Do you think this money will be well spent?
It depends… The distance is too short for a full HS line, but a good quality 200 km/h line which would allow Milano Centrale-Lugano in 30-40 min (currently ca 1 h) I think would make economic sense. In addition to Lugano it would also connect Como with Milano in 20 min.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:08 AM   #1555
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The name is "interval timetable", but that's incomplete, not every interval timetable lets trains meet in stations. That is called "Integraler Taktfahrplan" in German, I think there's no term for that in English.
I would say "integral and symmetric timetable" ("horaire cadencé symmétrique" in French).

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No, the changes are mainly south of the Gotthard base tunnel. The north stays the same except for being changed by 30 minutes.
No, north of Arth Goldau (to be precise, north of Erstfeld's junction) everything will remain as it is. There will be additional trains, but in addition to the current structure.

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Had there ever been a plan to build a Zürich-Lötschberg link via Luzern-Interlaken, in a way that made it a fast connection?
No but the Gotthard-West options (one of the many unbuilt AlpTransit options) was for a Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen-Interlaken/Luzern line, likely without a connecting chord to allow fast Luzern-Interlaken trains. I would have preferred that over the current project, by the way (which is better for freight, thought).

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The adoption of a 60-minute period is entirely artificial. Nothing would prevent, mathematically, from it being a 71-minute period, or 48-minute period, or 57-minute period.

Adopting non-60-minute periods would allow improvements to be made and travel time to be further slashed.

60 minutes is a purely artificial constraint related to the way traditional time measurement, which is a continuum, has been divided into.
Some systems work on a 20-minute basis, which is also natural. Copenaghen's S-Tog, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I assume Zurich-Lugano every 30 min in less than 2 h will happen only when both tunnels are in operation. What is likely to be the intermediate solution after Gotthard tunnel is open, but before Ceneri tunnel is finished?
IR Basel-Erstfeld + IC Zürich-Lugano every hour, with swapped terminus the following hour, plus one IC Zürich-Lugano every two hours. One out of three ICs, every 2 hours, goes to Milan as an EC.

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The Italians could probably be enticed to build a new HSL to Chiasso if a full HSL was built on the Swiss side.
It would be useful as a mixed traffic line.

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Can you remind us the reason for that?
A 2 km section noth of Walchwil will be doubled. The clousure will last from December 2016 to June 2018.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:14 AM   #1556
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1.5 years for 2km doubling? isn't that a bit too much?
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:14 AM   #1557
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The main issue for building a new line between Milano and Chiasso is the suburban sprawl. A HSL is virtually impossible unless you tunnel it the whole way. It also makes it more difficult to upgrade the existing line, there are enough level crossings and plenty of houses directly next to the line. Both options are costly, especially for the limited time savings to be gained.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:22 AM   #1558
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There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:27 AM   #1559
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There is always the option of building an improved link Locarno-Domodossola-(Brig)
What for? It still wouldn't be faster that way.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 12:30 AM   #1560
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The main issue for building a new line between Milano and Chiasso is the suburban sprawl. A HSL is virtually impossible unless you tunnel it the whole way. It also makes it more difficult to upgrade the existing line, there are enough level crossings and plenty of houses directly next to the line. Both options are costly, especially for the limited time savings to be gained.
That's true, but is there really nothing that could be done without tunnelling the whole way? Hard to believe that... Also going from 1 h to 0.5 h would be a huge difference.
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