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Old August 12th, 2014, 01:01 PM   #1861
Vaud
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Suburbanist won't like this sign of success...

http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/suisses-par...story/31441660

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Les 2307 km parcourus placent la Suisse nettement en tête au niveau mondial, écrit mardi la LITRA dans un communiqué. Le Japon est loin derrière (1912), précédant la France (1301), l'Autriche (1280) et le Danemark (1190)
From the press release: http://www.litra.ch/fr/News/Les-News...948&teaserId=5 (in french and german only)

[IMG]http://i59.************/fw254y.png[/IMG]

Switzerland tops one more year the number of km travelled by railway users according to the International Union of Railways, way ahead of the second contender (Japan) and the rest of countries.
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Old August 12th, 2014, 01:18 PM   #1862
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Suburbanist won't like this sign of success...

[...]

Switzerland tops one more year the number of km travelled by railway users according to the International Union of Railways, way ahead of the second contender (Japan) and the rest of countries.
Why wouldn't I like it. I just think long-distance services are crappy-ish and speed is forgotten, which would bring these numbers even higher - imagine if people could commute from Interlaken to Zurich, realistically, on a daily basis, they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland

There is something that needs to be clarified though: which types of railways are included on this calculation or not? What about subways? Hybrid systems (like French RER)? Tram-train networks?
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Old August 12th, 2014, 09:55 PM   #1863
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Some time ago Geneva-Lausanne (and viceversa) traffic was theoretically forbidden on Geneva-Milan EC trains, but all other traffic allowed.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Are the car shuttles (Lötschberg, Oberalp, Vareinna, Abula, Simplon) all financially self-sufficient?
I think the Lötschberg is self-sufficient, the Vereina nearly self-sufficient, the others more or less heavily subsidized. It's just what I remember having read somewhere in the past, thought, I have no sources.

By the way, since sometime after the opening of the Vereina shuttle and improvement on the Julier pass road, the Albula service doesn't run anymore (since 2010 or so - it ran mainly if not only in winter); and the Oberalp shuttle is just a service for local traffic with 3 to 4 departures a day per direction only when the road is closed during winter.

The Lötschberg, Furka and Vereina shuttles also carry trucks, but not the bigger ones (I think the limit is around 28 tonnes and 3.6/3.8 metres in heigth).
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Old August 13th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #1864
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Why wouldn't I like it. I just think long-distance services are crappy-ish and speed is forgotten, which would bring these numbers even higher -
I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.

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imagine if people could commute from Interlaken to Zurich, realistically, on a daily basis, they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland
So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...
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Old August 13th, 2014, 05:05 PM   #1865
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Rail accident in Graubünden near Tiefencastel:
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/ostschwe...orgen-18005231

A landslide blocked the track, three coaches derailed, one is hanging down into the woods. Reports say 5 serious injured, 2 with light injuries. All passengers are removed from the train.

Reminds me of the accident on the Arlberg railway in 1995 when a landslide destroyed a bridge - 4 killed, 12 with life threatening injuries. http://schienenfahrzeuge.netshadow.a...image_id=36844

Thank god all passengers survived this time. That shows again that a total control of nature is still impossible!
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Old August 13th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #1866
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A landslide on the Albula Railway has caused a train to derail hurting 5 people severely and 2 just slightly.




http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/gra...id3050642.html
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Old August 13th, 2014, 06:56 PM   #1867
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Thanks for the sturdy trees this didn't result in a much bigger disaster from a casualty perspective. If the 2 carriages had fallen into the lake below it would have resulted in much bigger tragedy. Hopefully injuries of the people with serious injuries are not too bad (for example, a broken leg already counts as serious injury).

This remains the biggest risk for this kind of railways, even with protective measures there's always a possibility of a landslide hitting the tracks in this kind of weather with lots of rain. But then the chances that it actually hits the train is pretty small. Although in this case it might have been the vibrations of the trains that were the trigger for the earth to start moving.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #1868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
they could live near beautiful mountains and still have jobs not present on the Bernese Oberland
I live near beautiful mountains
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Old August 14th, 2014, 02:39 AM   #1869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.


So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...
Reading his posts you will go out your mind. He always have problem with something, mr safety expert. He probably never even step into SBB train, making his decisions by listening to CNN.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 03:13 AM   #1870
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Reading his posts you will go out your mind. He always have problem with something, mr safety expert. He probably never even step into SBB train, making his decisions by listening to CNN.
I have traveled around 2600km (roughly) in SBB trains in Switzerland over the course of years. Last time I rode a scheduled regular SBB train was in 2009.

I'm not counting the Gonergat rail and several cable cars/funiculars.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 07:15 AM   #1871
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I have traveled around 2600km (roughly) in SBB trains in Switzerland over the course of years. Last time I rode a scheduled regular SBB train was in 2009. I'm not counting the Gonergat rail and several cable cars/funiculars.
That's about what the average Swiss does in a year... Or what I do in 3 weeks...
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Old August 14th, 2014, 07:51 AM   #1872
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That's about what the average Swiss does in a year... Or what I do in 3 weeks...
Yeah, I never lived in Switzerland, the closest was 50km south of the border.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 02:51 AM   #1873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I wouldn't call the service "crappy-ish" it is certainly better than intercity services in comparable countries, like Belgium or the Netherlands. Speed is actually quite good, given the geography. I can get to most places I need to be for my work using public transist in a time comparable to what it would take to do this by car. Remember that what counts is not the speed of the vehicles, but the speed of the passengers. Speeding up a train so that passengers only end up spending more time at stations (as is often the case in France or Italy) is not an efficient use of resources...
That is the reason for the high useage: That the system actually enables lots of people to exclusively get around using public transport. There are not a lot of places in Europe where this is possible.


So you think it would be a good idea to spend billions to destroy the Berner Oberland?
I think you'll have a hard time to convince the inhabitants of the Berner Oberland that you are not completely out of your mind...
So far as they are, Swiss Railways are not significantly better than Dutch or Belgian Railways. It’s nothing but a fantasy. A certain speed (V200 for IC trains, V160 for IR trains) should be part of a good transportation offer.

SBB are extremely slow, it’s a fact. Except a few lines allowing V200, a lot of sections are limited to ridiculously low speeds, even on the main line between Geneva and St. Gallen. V100 is a joke!!!

You’re talking about geography. Haven’t you heard about shinkansen bullet trains? Japan or Taiwan are as mountainous as Switzerland, yet that didn’t stop them building high-speed lines.

The speed of the passengers depends on the short connection time AND the speed of the trains. But in reality, how many people need an onward connection? Personally, in most cases, I don’t need to change train, except if I’m going to Berner Oberland. The Swiss system with nodal stations is old hat.

It’s time for high-speed trains between all the major cities, that’s all. The rest of the country can keep sleeping quietly, don’t worry.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 09:47 AM   #1874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quimporte View Post
So far as they are, Swiss Railways are not significantly better than Dutch or Belgian Railways.
At the exception of the punctuality.

And there must certainly be a rational explanation to the fact that swiss
people who are using public transport the most, worldwide.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 11:28 AM   #1875
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The Swiss rail network is particularly dense, much more so than, say the Netherlands. In the Netherlands you need to use buses to get to many towns whereas nearly all towns of reasonable size in Switzerland are rail served. Or in the Netherlands the route between two stations is not direct whereas it is in Switzerland.

I expect that graph of train distance per inhabitant is distorted in some cases by commuter networks into big cities. The UK does better than the Netherlands on it but it is hard to believe that the UK network is better. Almost anyone travelling to London goes by train because the alternatives are so much worse and London has a vast commuter network. I expect the same could be said for Paris. Maybe even Zurich.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 06:50 PM   #1876
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The Swiss rail network is particularly dense, much more so than, say the Netherlands. In the Netherlands you need to use buses to get to many towns whereas nearly all towns of reasonable size in Switzerland are rail served. Or in the Netherlands the route between two stations is not direct whereas it is in Switzerland.

I expect that graph of train distance per inhabitant is distorted in some cases by commuter networks into big cities. The UK does better than the Netherlands on it but it is hard to believe that the UK network is better. Almost anyone travelling to London goes by train because the alternatives are so much worse and London has a vast commuter network. I expect the same could be said for Paris. Maybe even Zurich.
The high density of SBB’s network is certainly a part of the answer. But I think that the frequency of services is another key point.

Who never missed a train for just a minute and then had to wait during one hour for the next one. That drives you mad. To avoid such situation, people might prefer to take a car, which gives much more flexibility. On the other hand, if there’s a train every quarter of an hour (which is the next development step on specific sections), then you don’t even need to check the time, and catch the first train that passes by. So, a railway company must, above all, offer good frequencies. 250 places every 15 minutes is much better than 1000 places every hour.

Then you mentionned the commuter networks. SBB and the Cantons (that are responsible for the local networks) have been very clever in developing many commuter networks around the Swiss cities (e.g. Zurich, Bern, Basel or Lausanne), but also around many towns or within Cantons/Regions (e.g. St. Gallen, Zug/Lucerne, Aargau, Ticino, etc.), each network having its own basic corporate identity.

That advanced development on local level is probably the key to SBB’s success, since the national network has a more limited growth potential.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 07:39 PM   #1877
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Comparisons with Netherlands are tricky in terms of local urban transportation, because the widespread uses of bikes reduces use of public transportation more than that of cars, compared to similar areas in Europe.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 08:04 PM   #1878
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The target is to have within 10 to 15 years a train every 30' on all IC routes, and every 15' on Geneva-Lausanne, Basel-Zürich and Berne-Zürich (and likely also St Gallen-Zürich and Lucerne-Zürich). By then also many regional services will likely be every 30'.

Because of the rapid increase of traffic it has been decided to first increase capacity than speed.

Quote:
The speed of the passengers depends on the short connection time AND the speed of the trains.
On Paris-Marseille that's true, on Lancy-Palézieux is not.

That said, some lines are really slow (like Lausanne-Berne), but as I said, it has been decided to invest money where it is most needed. However, with the new rail fund approved last February, new projects will might become reality: what will be built in the next phase will be decided by 2018.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 08:41 PM   #1879
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On Paris-Marseille that's true, on Lancy-Palézieux is not.
Why not??? It’s not similar scale, but it’s impossible to separate connection time and the speed of the trains.


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…it has been decided to invest money where it is most needed.
Needed by SBB for their new clients. But what do passengers need? Long time SBB users don’t care about new seats. They want a substantial improvement of speed, which is, I think, the biggest challenge for the next years.

SBB’s mission should not be just transporting as many people as possible from point A to point B, without any consideration for speed. In 2014, it’s still much quicker by car than by train between Geneva and St. Gallen. That must really change.

Last edited by quimporte; August 21st, 2014 at 08:57 PM.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 09:39 PM   #1880
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SBB’s mission should not be just transporting as many people as possible from point A to point B, without any consideration for speed. In 2014, it’s still much quicker by car than by train between Geneva and St. Gallen. That must really change.
That route should have a HSL connecting Geneve-Lausanne-Bern-Zurich-St. Gallen
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