Ontario unveils $17-BILLION transit plan

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by Steeltown

Next week Harper and McGuinty will make an infrastructure funding announcement together.

This I believe will be the first time Harper and McGuinty will be together to announce any funding. So this must be big.

STEVE is going to be seen in public with McGuinty? I guess the plummeting polls have finally penetrated Fort Hooper.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

STEVE is going to be seen in public with McGuinty? I guess the plummeting polls have finally penetrated Fort Hooper.

It's called "posturing"

[GTS]

Dentrobates54 regarding your post #78 when you talked about Fare Evasion I think that T.O. has nothing compared to the MTA in NYC. I was there a few years ago and stayed withing walking distance of a subway station. At this one station almost everytime I used the subway I witnessed young men just jump over the turnstiles without paying. I thought that this was one station in NYC's vast network and I imagined that this type of fare evasion might occur at any station with this kind of un-monitored station entrance. I imagine that the MTA loses hundred's of thousands in revenue just from this type of fare evasion.

[vid]

In Thunder Bay, you can ride buses free as long as you get on at the terminals. The drivers usually leave the bus unsupervised during their breaks and don't bother to check that everyone paid a fare when they get back.

[GTS]

I've heard some people say that they want transit fully subsidized here in T.O. so that no one has to pay a fare. I don't know if I agree with that idea, it would definitely increase usage and get more cars off the road but, I think it would divert more funds from the much needed expansion plans it has. 100% subsidy would definitely help the poorer more vulnerable people stay mobile. It would save some money in that we wouldn't need a ticket agent. If it was free it might be harder to kick someone off the bus when they are disruptive though. Their are positives and negatives to this idea and maybe some other people have ideas on this topic.

[vid]

It shouldn't be subsidized so much that there is no fare, but the fare should be kept below two dollars, in my opinion. The $2.75 or $3.00 that it is now is too much.

[Homer J. Simpson]

I think the TTC recovers about 80% from the fare box. Most North American pt systems seem to have about a 40%-50% recovery rate. I think the ideal thing would be no more than 45%. I as a property owner and income tax payer mind subsidizing it even though I don't usually use it for my work commute. The more cars the TTC removes from the road means less pollution, traffic, and noise.

There is this myth that the government is too poor to fund capitol and operational expenses of transit agencies. The truth is that the provincial and federal governments have been swimming in money for decades. They have just spent it on building and maintaining unsustainable infrastructure like roads in remote areas.

[Taller, Better]

We pay plenty of tax money... I think too much of it goes out and does not come back to our region.
I fail to see why we should have to borrow money to replace that which has been taken from us and redistributed elsewhere.

[Homer J. Simpson]

^We do, most of us don't mind helping fund services elsewhere.

I know I certainly do get pissed off when a local project that we are in dire need of cannot get funding simply because politicians are often afraid of being seen to be spending our own money on us rather than elsewhere.

Last month I was in Kingston at a bar and got into an argument with a local fool about who funds what. I wish I could say I showed him up, thankfully a local politician was part of the conversation and he did actually say that I was right about the redistribution of funds within the upper levels of government. He also made the point of reminding me that without infrastructure in the rural areas that we would have no agriculture or other primary industries. I didn't disagree with that, I simply stated that from time to time we need money for our citizen's needs too and that we are only asking for a portion of the money we pay out that we never see back directly.

[Steeltown]

So Harper will be making 4 funding announcements in Mississauga, K/W, London and in Hamilton next week. Monday for Missy I believe. Tuesday for Hamilton.

Fall election perhaps? haha

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Steeltown

So Harper will be making 4 funding announcements in Mississauga, K/W, London and in Hamilton next week. Monday for Missy I believe. Tuesday for Hamilton.

Fall election perhaps? haha

Oh yes, the big one is coming.
McGuinty is going to have the last laugh in all this; there's going to be 2+ years of construction for transit improvements by the time he's up for re-election. Harper has, after 3 years, what to show for his commitment and dedication? NOTHING! Nothing has broken ground in transit in the GTA under his watch.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Whether or not you like McGuinty or believe he has made any worth while change, you must agree that he has been better than Harper has.

[GTS]

The McGuinty govt. came up with the MoveOntario 2020 Plan and that is the best transit plan I have seen, that covers a lot of the population here in the GTAH. If Harper wants to win my vote he should come up with the final 1/3rd of this $17.5 Billion plan as the McGuinty gov't has already pledged over $11 Billion of it. This plan covers a lot of the transit dreams and hopes I have for transit here in the GTAH.

[vid]

The expansion of the Trans Canada in Northwestern Ontario is largely a federal initiative. (We have a conservative MP who might lose in the next election.) The province is also funding some other stuff though. Nothing for transit.

And the bush roads are needed to connect the remote communities out there. Forestry roads are built by the province and maintained by corporations until the corporations leave that area, where they become provincially maintained roads or are just abandoned. The amount of money that goes to maintaining them really wouldn't amount to much if it was diverted to the GTA.

[GTS]

Vid, do you have the $ #'s of what Ontario spends on these little used roads up north? If the money was diverted to the GTA we would be even more hated outside of the GTA.

[vid]

Ontario 2007 budget: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/bud...chpt1g.html#2a

• In 2007–08, the government is investing $899 million in Ontario’s southern highway network.

• In 2007–08, the government is investing $468 million in Ontario’s northern highway network.

This is for the highways as a whole, and would include the large projects on the Trans-Canada as well as small highway projects. I can't find actual numbers on secondary (500s, 600s, 800s) highways though, but from experience, most of that is just pavement repair (potholes, washout repair fund) or resurfacing on dirt roads (they run a grater over it and it evens the road out again to get rid of ruts and make it easier to drive on), just general small maintenance stuff. Also, the government includes Parry Sound and Muskoka in Northern Ontario now, and much of that funding is going to those districts and to Nipissing to make Highway 11 fully four laned between Toronto and North Bay. The numbers for Northern Ontario proper are probably less.

Most secondary highways up here are either dirt, or really low grade asphalt that isn't any better than dirt. It doesn't cost much to maintain it, but if the money was diverted and maintenance stopped, many places up here would be unreachable by vehicle, and many aspects of our economy, especially forestry, would collapse as it is dependant on those roads, even the 'insignificant' ones. Even many secondary highways around Thunder Bay are dirt roads.

[Homer J. Simpson]

When I made the point of urban areas funding rural roads the only reason I made it was because for some reason rural residence almost always believe that they are the ones subsidizing urban dwellers.

Just about every natural resource we use comes from remote places that need infrastructure to make its transport to centers of demand possible.

Proper infrastructure is a must for an economy of modern scale.

Sadly too many people in this society do NOT know where all the dough comes from.

Even some people who work in the agricultural industry don't realize that they are one of the most subsidized industries.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson

^We do, most of us don't mind helping fund services elsewhere.

I know I certainly do get pissed off when a local project that we are in dire need of cannot get funding simply because politicians are often afraid of being seen to be spending our own money on us rather than elsewhere.

Last month I was in Kingston at a bar and got into an argument with a local fool about who funds what. I wish I could say I showed him up, thankfully a local politician was part of the conversation and he did actually say that I was right about the redistribution of funds within the upper levels of government. He also made the point of reminding me that without infrastructure in the rural areas that we would have no agriculture or other primary industries. I didn't disagree with that, I simply stated that from time to time we need money for our citizen's needs too and that we are only asking for a portion of the money we pay out that we never see back directly.

No one minds sharing or helping, but 20 billion net outflow a year is ludicrous. If you look at the levels of "redistribution" since the inception of the equalization programme, you see how slowly and steadily the amounts taken from Ontario have jumped up, with no one having the common sense to complain about it. Whenever the Federal government needed to win votes, they promised an increase of equalization, which of course meant money from Alberta and Ontario. It has come to the point we are subsidizing far more than we can afford to... some have not provinces have very sweet social programmes like child care that we cannot afford, and one province has lowered its corporate taxes through the generosity of the equalization programme. Ontario can't afford to do so, as we have given so much money away. I say cut the amount in half. Other provinces should not be counting on, or balancing their own budgets on the backs of Ontario taxpayers. Yes we will help, but we are not going to have our pockets picked in the process.

[Steeltown]

Harper is going to make a campaign style stop at Mississauga tonight, he'll probably re-announce BRT funding for Missy. Tomorrow he's off to Hamilton General Hospital to make a funding annoucement.

It's likely he'll pop over to Guelph since there's a byelection taking place. He'll be off to London and K/W as well.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

No one minds sharing or helping, but 20 billion net outflow a year is ludicrous. If you look at the levels of "redistribution" since the inception of the equalization programme, you see how slowly and steadily the amounts taken from Ontario have jumped up, with no one having the common sense to complain about it. Whenever the Federal government needed to win votes, they promised an increase of equalization, which of course meant money from Alberta and Ontario. It has come to the point we are subsidizing far more than we can afford to... some have not provinces have very sweet social programmes like child care that we cannot afford, and one province has lowered its corporate taxes through the generosity of the equalization programme. Ontario can't afford to do so, as we have given so much money away. I say cut the amount in half. Other provinces should not be counting on, or balancing their own budgets on the backs of Ontario taxpayers. Yes we will help, but we are not going to have our pockets picked in the process.

No kidding.

The best part of this whole debacle is this that Alberta and Ontario tend to be last or almost dead last in spending on just about every social program we have. With cost of living and demands in Alberta as well as a slow down in Ontario both provinces desperately need money for social programs and for infrastructure.

Despite that, we get nothing.

B.C. and Saskatchewan are both doing so well they are virtually not have nots anymore, but the others need to pull themselves up and accept that services cannot be subsidized for them forever.