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Old June 29th, 2007, 12:16 PM   #41
isaidso
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Yeah, I think they look very 1940's glamourous. As far as upgrades go, there are actually billboards around the city asking for public input regarding what they want in a new streetcar. After 2 decades of little funding, we just got a $17.5 Billion dollar transit package over 12 years. Part of the package is 123km of new streetcar routes and new streetcars. Low floor and more silver (to match the subway) looks likely.

In Melbourne, you call them trams? Is Melbourne the only city in Australia with trams? It's a shame because they really add to your city. What company used to make/design them in Australia? That's a shame too. Canada's very lucky to have Bombardier: their rail division has 3 plants here.

My parents adore Melbourne, and told me I'd really feel comfortable there. Looks like I'll have to plan a trip.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gappa View Post
I wish Melbourne had less variation in design and colouration like Toronto. I also wish that we still made/designed our own Trams here. I guess I should be happy that we've still got a system at all; just look what happened to pretty much every other English speaking city in the world!
Year it is quite sad. But there was a reason for it in those days. London had around 555km of tram lines (route length) by the 1930's, mostly served by those splendid double decker trams. But already then the bus was starting to creep in and was seen as more suitable. Trams in those days were a lot different to the ones we have today. The electrical contacts often fell off the power cables and it was a very dangerous job to re-hook them. Staff needed to be placed at major intersections to assist in switching lines. The tram in those days was far less comfortable than a bus, less flexible and needed constant repairs to tracks.

It's no wonder that many countries saw a brighter future with buses. Trams then simply were not as technologically good as they have become now.

The only positive aspect with the demise of the tram globally that I can think of, was in London, which replaced the double decker trams with the iconic and remarkable Routemaster double decker bus. These buses eventually became more iconic than any tram in the world and are loved by almost everyone. Sadly, they are finally on their way out now.

Whilst the tram disappeared from most English speaking countries (with a few exceptional English speaking cities including Melbourne and Toronto) oddly, many other European countries kept their networks. Germany is one country where nearly every city (and many small towns) still retain their tram networks. They are not as large as they used to be, because many lines have since been replaced with proper metro's or u-bahns, but it is still more common to arrive in a city and see a tram network than not.

Probably the most amazing network in the world is in Lisbon, Portugal. It is far smaller than it once was (due to the subway system being developed) but what is left is still (in my opinion) the most amazing network - mainly due to the incredibly old historic trams that trundle over the steep hills and narrow lanes. There is nothing quite left in the world like it.

Although I have to admit, those gerogous W-Class trams in Melbourne also still fill me with a feeling of delight.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 10:55 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Yeah, I think they look very 1940's glamourous.

In Melbourne, you call them trams? Is Melbourne the only city in Australia with trams? It's a shame because they really add to your city.
  • Adelaide has one tram line, from the seaside at Glenelg to the CBD: it runs on it's own right of way (like some melbourne lines) and is currently being extended through the CBD
  • Sydney has a line from Central Station to Lilyfield: it mainly runs on a converted freight line. There's also a short tourist line in the Royal National Park.
  • Bendigo & Ballarat have tourist lines retained from their former networks: Bendigo's amounts to many km, extending across the inner city.

I think most of the W-Class trams were constructed at the Tramways Workshops at Preston (correct me if I'm wrong). The Z & A class were put together in Dandenong, a Melbourne suburb (I think?)

Last edited by Yardmaster; June 30th, 2007 at 01:47 PM.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 02:20 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gappa View Post
I wish Melbourne had less variation in design and colouration like Toronto.
I don't ... I enjoy the variety of steel-wheeled vehicles coursing through our streets ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gappa View Post
I also wish that we still made/designed our own Trams here. I guess I should be happy that we've still got a system at all; just look what happened to pretty much every other English speaking city in the world!
Agree here. Btw, Gappa, in your original summary of tram rolling-stock here you've missed out one model of tram that routinely courses our streets ...





These 5000 series trams have appeared in a couple of photos in this thread, but no-one has identified them specifically!

For those that haven't noticed:
  • trams numbered below 2000 (W, A , Z and very ancient trams) are rigid vehicles that don't bend in the middle;
  • B series trams are numbered 2000 up and are double units
  • C & D series trams are numbered 3000 & 3500 up & are triple units
  • and then there's the 5000 series: which are pentuple units (4 joints)

I guess this one should be numbered 4000 and something, but it isn't:



While I'm at it, here's where most Swanston St. trams end: at Melbourne University. An old photo, you can still see the former M/Tram livery here held over from the former "Melbourne & Metropolitan Tramways Board".



There was a stage when Melbourne trams (and country trains) went orange, white and grey ... we've also had trams decorated like pakistanii buses (last year) and fleet of trams decorated by the artists of the city ...
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #45
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W Class trams are good to look at and probably good for tourists, but there's a reason why they're restricted to a handful of routes because they are quite slow and aren't exactly very friendly for the elderly or people with stuff to carry, or anyone who just wants a quick and comfortable ride from A to B. The Disability Discrimination Act requires that all routes be wheelchair accessible within a couple of decades anyway, so eventually they'll probably be relegated to the City Circle route.

Quote:
^ Interesting, as they look like normal stops over here. I can't remember the current system for Melbourne, how is it again?
The old type of stop was the safety zone, which is just a fence in the middle of the road to separate passengers from traffic.They're quite narrow and it's pretty bad in the CBD (at the few remaining stops of this design) where you have to push through a crowd of people to get out of the stop.

The most common stop is still the sign on the side of the road, where you just stand on the road as the tram approaches. This accounts for almost every stop outside the CBD and its immediate surrounds.

Colour schemes: The green colour scheme is outdated, IMO. The Yarra Trams corporate colours don't look that good on the boxy designs of the older trams but it's great on the newer models. And as pointed out, it wasn't really that widespread, except for that period in the late-80s and 90s. The Z class trams were delivered in orange, the suburban railways were blue and yellow, then orange and grey, then green and yellow, then green and blue (for the M>Train half), then blue and yellow once again. Country trains went from blue and yellow to orange and grey to the current blue and red (or purple and green on the newest DMUs). And the buses just wore the colours of whichever company had the contract to operate the route.

Anyway, the new Combino tram doesn't have a class or a number following the existing scheme because it's a demonstration vehicle from Lisbon, which has since gone back home. Yarra Trams has a habit of getting other cities' trams sent over for trials - Bombardier's Eurotram was also in Melbourne a few years ago, and there were pictures of a Flexity tram from Adelaide doing trial runs in Melbourne recently.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 05:46 PM   #46
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Just to clear up any problems regarding the Melbourne tram fleet while the instigator is away, here's a summary from Yarra Tram's Historical site





There's a problem with numbering the "A" Series trams here, but you'll note there's 21 5-car Combinos on the tracks (or more?) which is why I find them so easy to photograph.

Last edited by Yardmaster; June 30th, 2007 at 06:16 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 04:54 AM   #47
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Nice work guys.

On the colour scheme I was thinking of maybe tying it in with the Metlink scheme -blue for trains, green for trams and orange for buses. So trains would be blue, as they are now, with a yellow stripe. Trams green, like they used to be, with a yellow stripe. And buses orange with a yellow stripe; although orange buses sound terrible.

Just a thought...

Edit: And yes, come to think of it the new trams might look a little weird in green, like the old ones do in white. Still they should at least trial it. Maybe a green and yellow stripe like the connex blue and yellow stripe? This leaves the rest of the vehicle free for advertisments etc. Although on that, I would like a limit to the amount of trams able to sport ads. Maybe one in ten?
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Old July 1st, 2007, 10:06 AM   #48
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currently liveries look fine.
If anything, all the buses should be make the smartbus colours, without the smartbus decors (so silver base, orange and black) so that liveries are consistent across operators.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 11:57 AM   #49
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Can't say I really warm to Yarra Tram's livery: the old MMTB green & yellow still looks really "Melbourne" to me, and the M/Tram colours have a bit more finesse than Yarra's "fishmonger" look.

I also enjoy the surprise of seeing something decked out in Cadbury's purple or whatever rolling down the street ... but the art-work ones were really something special.

Last edited by Yardmaster; July 2nd, 2007 at 08:19 PM.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 05:12 PM   #50
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On that here's some (poor quality) pictures of the Karachi tram:

http://www.yarratrams.com.au/default.jsp?xcid=1605


http://www.melbourne2006.com.au/M200...rachi+tram.htm


All from http://www.melbourne2006.com.au/In+t...ne/Default.htm :

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Old July 2nd, 2007, 08:12 PM   #51
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Well done!

back in the Cain/Kirner Years, there was a stage when we had dozens of trams uniquely decorated by local artists ... including, for instance, the notorious Michael Leunig, but I haven't found this yet by googling it.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 06:51 PM   #52
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Some advertising liveries are also very imaginative.

The Deep Spring one with the naked bodies below the windows come to mind.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 12:38 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible View Post
Some advertising liveries are also very imaginative.

The Deep Spring one with the naked bodies below the windows come to mind.
No photos? do I have to imagine it?
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Old July 6th, 2007, 01:49 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gappa
There's an old map floating about showing the proposed extensions to Melb's tram network from the 50's. If they were all implemented then Melb's system would be about twice the size it is today. Unfortunately the Freeway put paid to that.
Do you know if it's posted on the web - I think I've seen it before but I'd love to see it again.
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Old July 6th, 2007, 05:58 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZH836301 View Post
Do you know if it's posted on the web - I think I've seen it before but I'd love to see it again.
I have a map here of proposed tramways extensions to the MMTW dated 27/8/1933: while I can find the hard copy, the soft-copy evades me, and tonight my printer/ multifunction unit has been trying unsuccesfully to shut down for several hours ... so I can't scan it without rebooting.

[edit & reboot]:



Some comments upon the map above:
  • at that stage, the only electric trams that went to the middle of the city were those by Batman Avenue/Swan Street: everyone else had to change to a cable tram when they hit the inner suburbs.
  • orbital routes had already been planned for.

Having lived in the western suburbs most of my life, note that:
  • Footscray was not yet attached to the rest of the tram system at that time
  • Footscray never-the-less had three tram-lines of its own (an early memory of mine is returning from a dentist with my father with my mouth bleeding after dark after my first tooth extraction in the middle of winter in one of those four-wheeled trams)
  • The line through Maribyrnong/Highpoint had not yet been built, but a more direct line to Moonee Ponds was proposed. The line that eventuated arose because of the multiplicity of Munitions Factories and other Defene Facilities that arose in the Maribyrnong area around WWII

Last edited by Yardmaster; July 6th, 2007 at 06:54 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2007, 08:00 AM   #56
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Thanks Yardmaster, that's exactly the map I was looking for - terrific.

So much vision in those days - makes me sad thinking of what could have been.

The Footscray network would certainly have been viable today with all the transport usership in the area. The map also shows the former Footscray routes, explaining the orphaned commercial areas and relatively high quality bus services that exist along these routes today. I could see a Ballarat Rd route being quite popular today. Same for the Nicholson St/Ascot Vale route. Also shows the proposed system for Williamstown, which I think was proposed to link with the Footscray system. Unfortunately some of the western routes are hard to make out, but I think the Somerville Rd tram continues down Millers Rd to Mason St, and the tram from Spotswood along Melbourne Rd to Newport.

Kensington gets a tram, and the main link between the Footscray system is made via Dynon Rd (via Arden St not Nth Melbourne station) and Ascot Vale, rather than Maribyrnong. Pity some of the cable routes were not retained. North Melbourne to Spencer St, Lygon St, and Johnston St would all be popular routes. I think Port Phillip Council is interested in returning cable trams to Bay St. Another lost route was the Point Ormond (Elwood) to Elsternwick section of the Glen Huntly Rd tram - could have made a good link to the 96 today.

Some things were also done differently than as shown - no Maribyrnong Rd/Mt Alexander Rd link, rather a Maribyrnong Rd/Moonee Ponds link; trams use Fletcher St rather than Buckly St at Essendon. Was also the possibility of a six-way tram junction at Camberwell. There's a few interesting little routes/links - such as a branch from Riversdale Rd into Auburn Rd terminating at Woodburn Rd, Kambrook Rd Caulfield, Willsmere Rd Kew, Canarvon Rd Strathmore, and Montague St Sth Melbourne. The Montague St tram, with the Bay St/City Rd tram, as well as the Hoddle St/Punt Rd tram, may have prevented their respective roads from becoming clogged traffic sewers. In addition to some nice density fillers in the northeast, such as Station St Fairfield, Belmore Rd Balwyn, and Barkers Rd Hawthorn, there is also an nice extensive system for the southeast which would likely get great usership if it existed today.

Another thing it shows are all the little extensions that are constantly talked about, yet never constructed. The 3 reaches Oakleigh (remember no Chadstone SC or Monash Fwy existed at the time), 5 continues to Darling (should continue further to Carnegie 67), 6 makes it to Ashburton, 112 to Reservoir, and 55 further north towards Glenroy. There's also a great number of cross-city links including: the popular Caulfield to Ivanhoe to Essendon proposal (utilising route 72 inpart), Bell St trams, Dawson St trams, Orrong Rd trams, and North, Centre, and South Rd trams.

No doubt these would make great routes today and hopefully with the continued public transport push many become reality in the future.

Last edited by BleakCity; July 7th, 2007 at 09:29 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2007, 03:43 PM   #57
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Thanks for that Yardmaster, that's the one I've seen. If you elect me at the next election I'll implement them all! (Plus free beer for everyone.)
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 02:58 PM   #58
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OK, gappa, will do.

Some more Melbourne Tram Pix:
  • Discouraging fare-evasion:



  • Encouraging civic spirit:



  • Serving the City Centre ("Town Hall")



  • And the top end of town:





  • One for the Portuguese:



  • & One for the Seattle Mob:



  • A "busy" shot" or two:





  • And the centre of town:


Last edited by Yardmaster; July 23rd, 2007 at 03:14 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 03:10 PM   #59
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I love the Pakistani decorated one. What a great idea, a bit of Karachi in grey old Melbourne.

It would be cool if that was permanent, and if they decorated a few more trams in the style of Filipino buses, and other styles from around the world.
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 03:23 PM   #60
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Grey Old Melbourne has done a lot in this spirit: giving artists a tram and few cans of paint for instance; resturaunt tram; theatre tram ...
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