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Old May 22nd, 2008, 10:51 PM   #141
Yardmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadGauge View Post
Congratulations Yardy for twisting my words, as you usually do.

Compare metropolitan bus services with metropolitan tram services for this one. There are no regional trams for comparison. You can't say that because of an accident involving a school bus on a dirt road in Red Cliffs, buses are safer than trams, which only run in urban streets of the capital city. Compare like for like - it's what they'd tell you to do at religious camp

And just for a reminder:
- don't include charter buses. ONLY MELBOURNE ROUTE BUSES
- don't compare the total number of bus accidents in victoria to the total number of tram accidents - pointless and makes you look like a tool
I haven't twisted your words in any way ... I simply asked the authority responsible for compiling statistics on traffic accidents for their data.

I've already pointed out that their stats are state-wide rather than metropolitan. I made no reference to any bus in Redcliffes, but "Shado" has already suggested that the worst tram accident is typical of the rest, and, further, that TAC (Transport Accident Commission) data can't be trusted, because it doesn't support your original assertion.

As regards me being a total "tool" etc., I'll leave that for posterity to work out. I will go back and gather more data- I already indicated that the TAC had given me less than I had hoped for, and that there were certain qualifications that could be placed upon the data I had received, but they seemed happy to provide more. I have already requested more data from them.

If you guys won't accept Government statistics as being reliable, then I'll look at any other sources you nominate as well.

One thing I should ask of you, however- is where you got the original idea from that there were far more tram than bus accidents in Melbourne.

Instead of calling me "a tool" (which for the benefit of the international community means "a prick", a *****, or whatever you wish to call it): substantiate it and quote your sources!

Another thing ... how come it always falls back on me to do all the research? A few months back you were demanding timetable info from me ...

And there is one thing we should both concede: if we are proved wrong, we should admit it. Own up that we were wrong- for whatever reason- and act like an adult; not like a child.

Last edited by Yardmaster; May 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 PM.
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Old May 25th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #142
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Yardy, don't make me laugh . Everybody knows that you specialise in ignoring facts! Sorry for taking a while - you didn't really think that I was going to let this one go did you?

Nothing unusual about your post with the usual ignoring facts - come back when you have statistics for trams v.s. metropolitan route buses. Most bus accidents happen on school runs on dodgy country roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
I've already pointed out that their stats are state-wide rather than metropolitan
Which makes them invalid. You can't compare figures for buses in a state over thousands of kilometres with trams in the inner city of Melbourne. There's far more buses over the entire state of Victoria, than there is trams in the inner suburbs of one city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
One thing I should ask of you, however- is where you got the original idea from that there were far more tram than bus accidents in Melbourne.
General feeling based on news reports of accidents - tell me the last time you heard of an accident involving a metropolitan route bus compared to the tram accidents?

Last tram accident was involving a police car and a Citadis in Collins Street last week, as well as many minor accidents which happen regularily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
Instead of calling me "a tool" (which for the benefit of the international community means "a prick", a *****, or whatever you wish to call it
Here's someone using a tool for you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
substantiate it and quote your sources!
I'm waiting on your first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
Another thing ... how come it always falls back on me to do all the research?
If you start out by providing un-substantiated claims, it falls back on you to provide correct information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
A few months back you were demanding timetable info from me ...
You mean those timetable files that I thankfully accepted from you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
And there is one thing we should both concede: if we are proved wrong, we should admit it.
I've admitted that I have been wrong numerous times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster
Own up that we were wrong- for whatever reason- and act like an adult; not like a child.
If anybody needs to do that more, it should be you.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 10:34 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadGauge View Post
There's more accidents in Melbourne involving trams than involving buses. A lot more infact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadGauge View Post
Congratulations Yardy for twisting my words, as you usually do.

Compare metropolitan bus services with metropolitan tram services for this one. There are no regional trams for comparison. You can't say that because of an accident involving a school bus on a dirt road in Red Cliffs, buses are safer than trams, which only run in urban streets of the capital city. Compare like for like - it's what they'd tell you to do at religious camp

And just for a reminder:
- don't include charter buses. ONLY MELBOURNE ROUTE BUSES
- don't compare the total number of bus accidents in victoria to the total number of tram accidents - pointless and makes you look like a tool
Metropolitan Data courtesy of the TAC (Transport Accident Commission):


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Old May 26th, 2008, 12:55 PM   #144
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Thanks Yardy for not getting it yet again - and the usual fact ignoring.

I'll do this one in dot points:

- I said METROPOLITAN ROUTE BUSES. Not buses in general. Not charter buses. Not school buses. Not private buses. Got it?
- I requested the number of accidents, not injuries.
- Where the hell did you get those figures? Sorry, images on ooompaloompa123's photobucket are not credible. Did you make them up?
- No injuries involving trains for a year? WTF? There's about two suicides involving trains per week for example - do you not count incidents like this?
- Or don't you count level crossing accidents? There were three people killed when a Sprinter train from Kyneton hit a car at Furlong Rd, Ginifer (St Albans) in late 2004 yet only one injury for the year? Is death not a serious injury?
- Do you count suicides?
- Are you saying that from January 2003 to December 2003, not a single person was injured by a train in Melbourne, yet more than one a week were injured in bus accidents?
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Old May 26th, 2008, 01:06 PM   #145
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the figures come from the Transport Accident Commission, which is a statutory body set up by the Victorian Government. I don't imagine it counts suicides (under trains at least) since the TAC is responsible- in various ways- for addressing accidents on the road. You can get the same stats from their website but you'll have to email them by the contact provided.

If charter buses are included in these stats, well too bad. You made the bold and unsubstantiated assertion, Broad Gauge: not me. All I did was provide some data that throws considerable doubt on your- as yet totally unsubstantiated assertion. All you've done so far is demand someone else make or break your claim. I think I've already done that. I don't think I can go much beyond that, because it's pretty obvious that no matter what data anyone produced, rather than admit you're wrong, you simply resort to personal abuse.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 01:19 PM   #146
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I never personally abuse you, Yardy. Always happy to admit when I am actually wrong.

Where ever you get the figures from, they are obviously very inaccurate. Why was this incident not counted?

As I said, you can't compare trams which solely exist as public transport, and both buses that are a public transport service and privately owned vehicles etc.

Not significant enough for Yardy's table:

Last edited by BroadGauge; May 26th, 2008 at 01:28 PM.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #147
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I have just referred your query back to the TAC. And then it hit me: these fatalities counted as road, not rail users.

Look, this thread is meant to be about Melbourne's trams: and you made an assertion to the effect that there were far more tram than bus accidents in Melbourne (and the collision you've referenced above involves neither a tram nor a bus!). You still haven't produced one scintilla of evidence to back up your claim, have abused me in various ways for challenging your assertion, and have implied both that I've fabricated the data I've posted since, and that the data (if I didn't make it up and it does come from a credible source) is wrong anyway.

You've also suggested (or implied): that most bus accidents occur in the country (that is, outside Melbourne); and, that for whatever reason, charter buses should be excluded from the data (you never excluded charter buses initially, so it's difficult to see why it subsequently became an issue). The TAC data indicates that more than 2/3rds of injuries to bus passengers occur in Melbourne: which isn't surprising because there is far more traffic and far far more buses there.

The data I have presented indicates that there are five times as many bus as tram passengers injured in Melbourne. You are telling me that I just made that up, in order to embarass you? It's pretty easily verified.

I know trams are a bit more solid than buses, but wouldn't the fact that there were more or less five times as many passengers injured in buses than trams -consistently, over a number of years- suggest something to you?

If that doesn't register- and you don't like my data (sourced from the TAC), why not provide something statistical (not an account of an individual accident or two) to back up your claim?

Last edited by Yardmaster; May 26th, 2008 at 07:28 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2008, 05:32 AM   #148
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Broadgauge as you are the one who made the original assertion that there are, "more accidents in Melbourne involving trams than involving buses. A lot more infact." It would seem to me that the onus is upon you to prove it, not for Yardmaster to disprove it

Lets try and keep this thread civil guys.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
but "Shado" has already suggested that the worst tram accident is typical of the rest, and, further, that TAC (Transport Accident Commission) data can't be trusted, because it doesn't support your original assertion.
That's not what I suggested at all. The data I gave represents accidents, the data you gave represents claims for injuries submitted to the TAC. All I was pointing out wat that there appears to be no direct relation between the number of accidents and the claims for injuries. I don't question that the TAC's data is an accurate representation of the number of claims they have had made, just the bearing that data has upon deciding the number of individual accidents. Quite clearly the fact that the one accident is NOT typical proves this. There are quite clearly many accidents that have no injuries reported and so don't appear in the TAC's data.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shado View Post
That's not what I suggested at all. The data I gave represents accidents, the data you gave represents claims for injuries submitted to the TAC. All I was pointing out wat that there appears to be no direct relation between the number of accidents and the claims for injuries. I don't question that the TAC's data is an accurate representation of the number of claims they have had made, just the bearing that data has upon deciding the number of individual accidents. Quite clearly the fact that the one accident is NOT typical proves this. There are quite clearly many accidents that have no injuries reported and so don't appear in the TAC's data.
That's pure supposition on your part, Shado: I emailed the TAC several times, and no-one said anything about claims. The TAC maintains stats on road accidents not involving PT as well, including fatalities: and people killed on the road don't file accident claims. Indeed many of these accidents involve motorists or motorcyclists who just ran off the road of their own volition: I think you have the wrong idea about the TAC.

Personally I'm sick of the whole subject: if there were 5 times as many metropolitan accident claims from bus passengers as from tram passengers, then I think you could draw obvious inferences regarding the no. of accidents overall, moreso given that most trams I travel on carry far more passengers than your typical bus. A substantial part of the Melbourne tram fleet consists of articulated trams with 2, 3 or 5 segments. Also,I've seen some bus drivers refuse passengers entry because the bus is loaded to its legal limit. Anyway, the official statistics as of last year were 85 million bus passengers, 157 million tram passengers (which is probably understated anyway).

On that basis, a bus passenger is more or less ten times more likely to suffer an injury/fatality as a tram passenger. Now you may argue that there are numerous tram accidents that don't involve injuries which would skew the data the other way, but personally, after all these years, some of which I used the tram daily to get to and from work, I've never been in a tram accident. That's not to say they don't happen- and certain tram accidents received widespread publicity over the past few years- mainly because they were tram accidents, and were so atypical.

I've tried to get onto the police website, just to clear up your doubts, but the police seem to have decided that they don't want the rabble on their website any more, and since it's nearly 8 pm at night, I think I'll leave the phone-call to the morning.

Last edited by Yardmaster; May 29th, 2008 at 12:46 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2008, 02:18 PM   #151
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Quote:
The TAC maintains stats on road accidents not involving PT as well
It's impossible to accurately maintain statistics on things that aren't reported in most cases. Fatalities would always be reported, but minor accidents involving cars are next to never reported as they're serious enough for that to happen. Pretty sure that a death requires paperwork, just because the dead person isn't the one doing the paperwork doesn't mean there isn't a paper trail. Just the same as because someone is minorly injured doesn't mean anyone other than themselves will know about it.

You seem to believe the TAC magically maintains statistics on single vehicle accidents with no injury recorded, I maintain that such an incident would virtually never come to their attention. I can see that in the PT arena there may be requirements to report accidents but there's little to nothing you can do to stop individuals from just getting any damage (if any) repaired and continuing on like nothing happened.

In order for the TAC to know about anything, someone, somewhere has to fill in a form. A police officer, a victim, a driver. Someone has to record that information. If they don't get told it doesn't get reported. A fatality is easy to measure, but what constitutes an injury ? I bet that threshold varies quite abit.

Quote:
these fatalities counted as road, not rail users.
I'm guessing that if a pedestrian gets hit by a bus or tram then they are both counted as pedestrian accidents, and not bus or tram accidents. For rail it's easy to make the assumption that the rail vehicles is never at fault unless it hits another rail vehicle.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 03:14 PM   #152
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For the third time in a month, Melbourne's main tramroute (it actually carries nine separate services) was held up: but this time, not by demonstrators, but by construction works.

The work took place over the weekend (since it's only 9:45pm Saturday here I hope this statement proves to be correct!). The work essentially involved the conversion of a section of ordinary double track to triple track, to facilitate operations.



This thirty metre (?) Y-junction was delivered, unloaded and placed before my eyes: there was another one to be placed this weekend:









Regarding the other issue which has plagued this thread recently, could I make a comment here?

This is a thread in an international forum, which was established to discuss the Melbourne Tram System. Very few people will bother to look at it if it becomes a thread about the difference between accidents, injuries, and injury claims, unless they have some special agenda in persuing such an argument.

The claim was made (by someone who is now apparently banned) that Melbourne trams were far more accident prone than buses. I presented evidence that contradicted this, and numerous subsequent postings have addressed this issue, no doubt doing no good for this thread, for Melbourne, for its trams, or for the guy who had the foresight to start this thread in the first place.

There are 5 times as many accident claims from bus passengers in Melbourne as tram passengers: not withstanding there are twice as many tram as bus passengers.

I have (on account of an assertion that Melbourne trams were much more accident-prone than buses) contacted a number of organisations:
  • The Transport Accident Commission
  • Yarra Trams
  • Australian Bureau of Statistics
  • Victoria Police

I have fed back what data I obtained: truthfully. Victoria Police says they can provide "accident" rather than "injury" stats, but it will cost $A110 per hour to extract it from their database, and (he estimates) it will take at least an hour. I should add that the officer I spoke to said "well, you're talking to the right person" (the officer or office responsible for maintaining road traffic accident statistics) and also commented- when I explained why I was making the enquiry- that what I thought to be the case looked pretty probable to him.

So Shado, Broad Gauge, anyone else ... could we just let this thread get back to its original purpose? If you really think trams are more accident prone than buses, present some evidence, drop me a PM, start a new thread in the Australian section, and consider contributing to the cost of getting the stats from the Victorian Police.

Last edited by Yardmaster; May 31st, 2008 at 08:22 PM.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 11:14 AM   #153
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Update Monday: new track in use, but under speed restrictions. Quite a bit more work to do yet:



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Old June 2nd, 2008, 04:12 PM   #154
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I have to say, it's been very annoying putting up with the road works on St Kilda road lately. But at least it's going to make the trams using that route go quicker. I've been avoiding any tram lines that pass down there on weekends as they're making you get off at Domain Interchange and get on a bus, drive up to Flinders street where you catch the tram again.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 04:24 PM   #155
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The upside:
  • no waiting for No. 1 trams to get out of the traffic stream
  • no waiting when trams terminate here (and this is obviously anticipated or they wouldn't have gone to all that effort & expense)

The downside:
  • trams run from double to triple to double to triple to double track in a few hundred metres. Hang onto the strap!

I suppose they looked at this and for some good reason rejected it, but by placing an island platform at the Gallery all this wiggling could have been avoided ...
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 03:36 AM   #156
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Yardmaster, I know this has been covered before, but why didn't Melbourne ever rip up it's tram network as every other Australian city did? (With the exception of Adelaide's Glenelg line) - evidently there was a few smart people with some foresight in Government during the '50's and '60's.

St Kilda road is basically a 'tram motorway', anything that can be done to speed up services running down it is ultimately for the best.
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 03:39 AM   #157
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Also Yardmaster, well done for remaining so civil and dignified during Broadgauge's tirade of vapid, ill-informed remarks above. It's nice to see at least one person on SSC that doesn't break out into all out slander at the very prospect of a factual debate.
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Old June 4th, 2008, 03:47 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
Yardmaster, I know this has been covered before, but why didn't Melbourne ever rip up it's tram network as every other Australian city did? (With the exception of Adelaide's Glenelg line) - evidently there was a few smart people with some foresight in Government during the '50's and '60's.

St Kilda road is basically a 'tram motorway', anything that can be done to speed up services running down it is ultimately for the best.
The conventional explanation for the retention of the Melbourne tramway system is to attribute it to Robert Risson: the Tramways Commisioner, who, amongst other things, ensured that the tram-lines were set in concrete so they couldn't be easily removed.

While giving him his due, I tend to doubt that one man (especially an MMTB commisioner) could alone change history so significantly. The nature of the tramwork already established- its extent and the degree to which it had been modernised, along with the street layout of Melbourne- certainly played a part as well.

According to "Aussive Steve" (from the equivalent thread in the Australian Transport sub-forum) there are 4 more projects on the way to speed up St Kilda Rd. - allegedly the world's busiest- route.

Last edited by Yardmaster; June 4th, 2008 at 09:44 PM.
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Old June 4th, 2008, 05:12 PM   #159
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The trams were pretty new too - Melbourne's operated some cable tram lines well into the 1930s before they were replaced with electric trams. The W class was in production from 1923 to 1956 - it probably helped that the MMTB decided to standardise the fleet and operate a single model of tram after it took over all the different tram companies.

And now, there are hundreds of retired W class trams sitting in storage, having served a long career. There are still a couple of routes (not counting the City Circle with its modified trams in special livery) which still use W class trams, although DDA regulations are going to put an end to that.
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Old June 4th, 2008, 09:42 PM   #160
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So you're saying the current W-Class Classics won't last?
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