#APPROVED: CAPPADOCIA, 5F Res (JV South)

[porshe911]

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[porshe911]

Originally Posted by WILLY2010

cappadocia- any news?

CAPATCHINO

[porshe911]

...

[nomham]

Hi everyone.

Seems like the Septemper 2010 deadline will not be met no matter how hard they try now.

I think we should all decide on next steps together and go from there. Not living in the UAE, I really don't know what rules and regulatations the govt. has in place that could protect the investors in such a situation, it would be nice if ppl here could share ideas about what to do next. What type of legal action can we take ... and since many of the investors are not even in UAE, how do we go about taking legal action?

I think we should atleast file a complaint with RERA. At this stage it is clear that the project cannot be completed by September 2010, and has been almost two and a half years now and there has'nt been any real progress on the site.

Assuming that the project is not completed by September 2010. What would be the route to take to get a refund on paid installments. Has any investor ever been issued refunds after a project stalled in the UAE. What are the usual scenarios when a project stalls?

One more thing that I noticed were two new projects being developed by G&G partner's listed on the RERA site, named Villa Pera and Villa Caria, and Cappadocia is no longer listed under G&G partner's projects (under developer search) however Cappadocia is listed under projects. I believe that Cappadocia was intentionally removed from the developer's projects so the prospect investors in the new projects would'nt know about Cappadocia's status.

Thanks.

[WILLY2010]

Nomham,

among all the uncertainties, there is one thing sure: the building will not be ready in september this year.

the investors are not really protected in the uae. the legislation in matter of dispute resolutions is not clear and frequently changing. the only thing sure
is that a refund is usually extremely difficult to obtain.

i agree that we should knock at RERA's door - but more to get some advice than really ask for some sort of solution to the problem. that s the least they can do.
asking advice from a lawyer, with some sort of "expertise" in the matter might be useful as well. legal issues are very tricky indeed for the non initiated ones.

i think that the starting point is ...our contract itself: chapter 13 and 14 , dealing with default and force majeur....can give us some clues.

well, for the moment they are complying with their obligations as they have exercised their rights to delay the completion date through "Force majeure". the positive side of this is that during this period, the investors' obligation to pay has also been freezed...

Now, it is clear that this "force majeure" clause will come to an end, and both parts will have to comply with their obligations. it is highly likely that they ask us to resume payments. This is precisely where the danger lies because they are not legally compelled to prove that they are in a position to complete the project.

their amazing lack of transparency and communication about the reasons for this unjustifiable delay do not incite us to trust them.

After it is a matter choice: Do we agree to continue to finance a project without any guarantee it will ever be completed in a forseeable future? the answer to that question will impact the kind of future actions to be taken.

as for me, i ve already made my choice.

it would be nice to have more investors in that forum to share ideas and actions to be taken.

[alanuk]

I contacted G&G by phone and have been told construction has now restarted and the completion date is 9 to 10 months from now. I have asked several times for a full update by email but they never reply. Anyone heard anything else?........RERA have an online complaint form you can fill in, takes about 5 min.

[TMZ]

Originally Posted by alanuk

I contacted G&G by phone and have been told construction has now restarted and the completion date is 9 to 10 months from now. I have asked several times for a full update by email but they never reply. Anyone heard anything else?........RERA have an online complaint form you can fill in, takes about 5 min.

dont bother with the online form, i filled it almost 2 years ago, no reply still

[FJ_cruizer]

I am on the same boat with you guys and I ve just got to know about this forum.Here is about my opinion.
As per the new rule in dubai if the construction has stopped you can claim your money but if they are still working on it you cant do much.
So they have just re-done the foundation and acting like the project is still going on.
It seems like they are just buying time.

[nomham]

Hi Everyone,

End of Sept. 2010 now ... and in view of the latest email update recieved today. I think we should all get together and set up an action plan ... to help each other deal with our common concerns. We can then proceed on that mutually agreed action plan one step at a time.

I think it depends on what the majority of us would like to go for ? And the answer varies in each investor's case.

1. A completed project by 2012 ?

(would anyone be willing to pay the next installment ... what if they claim that the project has been delayed again becuase of force majure once we all pay the next installment?)

2. Legal action to claim refund + interest ?

3. Wait and see ? (I don't think this would be a good option)

Willy , Alan and everyone else ... I think we should be more proactive, the update they just sent only goes to show how they are willing to put each clause of the S&P agreement ahead of them to protect them for everything they do wrong.

For a start I think we should set up a group on FB for further discussion ... I can do this ... but I think Willy should be the owner of the group, or I can create the group and appoint Willy as a moderator.

Thanks guys.

[nomham]

Hi Guys ... just created the group ... all investors please feel free to join.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=150407128327781

Thanks.

[WILLY2010]

Hi Nomham,

i am sharing your concerns.

however I suggest that before moving on options 1 or 2, it will be a good idea to know where we stand in regards with the law, which is (and has become) increasingly in favour of the developpers.

From a broad perspective, the situation is not very much in our favour. there are no legally acceptable causes which could justify the cancellation of our contracts, if this is what we want to do.

the cancellation of a contract(your option number 2) can be only done through a full fledge legal action at the courts....the judges may respond positively but only if -to summarize- one of those 3 conditions are met:
- developer does not start construction without justifiable cause or because of gross negligence.
- developper does not link the payment with construction based milestones
- building present major structural defects....
None of those cases apply to us.In other words, i think that if we actually decide to go to the court with the view to cancel our agreement AND get a full refund, there is a very high probability that we lose the case...

Our angle of attack should be more subtle: their letter , as always , is very vague as why they are so much late into completing the project. they stipulate that the delay in obtaining the building permit constitutes an event of force majeure. However, those reasons appear to be weak as per the latest version of the law, which , in the decret no6 of 2010, stipulates that :
-delay in taking handover of the plot and otaining necessary approvals from the authorities without any reasons....
-delay in obtaining written approval for plans and designs etc....
are considered as negligence....from the developer's side. We need to assess further to which extent their responsibility lie in delaying the project, because this could be the "ground" for legal actions, if any, from our side.

i welcome your creation of a facebook account -before accepting being its moderator, i would probably need to know what it consists of.
In the meantime, i am going to send Beney and investment a response to their letter. my next step will to go and see Rera to assess the resources we could use...

i will keep members of that forum/ facebook?
cheers

[nomham]

Hi Willy, everyone,

just sent Mr. Osman Celiker this email, I hope he responds to it;

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Dear Mr Osman, and representatives of G&G Partners and Beney Investments Limited,

With reference to your letter dated 25th of September 2010, and purchase of Unit --- in Cappadocia, Jumeirah Village South.

I believe that the reasons provided in your letter as to the exact reason for the delay are not very clear. The delay in obtaining a building permit may not be a "force majeure" event if this delay was not "caused" by the relevent authorities and Govt. agencies. I personally believe that it is not possible for a relevant govt. authority to delay issuance of a building permit by almost 3 years, unless Beney Investments Limited or G&G Partners failed or intentionally delayed the issuance of such a permit.

I would like Beney Investments Limited to provide more detailed information on the reason for the delay of almost 3 years. Please also include why the building permit could not be obtained on time, and from which particular authority? What substantial efforts did Beney Investments Limited make to obtain the building permits on time? How was the cause of this delay beyond the control of Beney Investments Limited? Were there no alternatives, solutions or remidies that Beney Investments could have practiced or executed to shorten the time period of or otherwise eliminate this delay in obtaining the building permits ?

I hope to receive a response soon,
Thank you,

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Willy, The creation of the Facebook group was only a measure to gather all investors under one place to discuss our options. Being a moderator / admin you are basically able to control all activity within the group, its not important though, since there won't be thousands of members, the role of an admin is very limited. Alan has already joined the group (Thanks Alan), I also made him an admin. Since the group is on Facebook I believe that google will eventually pick up and return results in the search engine for the group and any concerned investors might join in after searching for "Cappadocia dubai".

Any information from your trip to Rera would be useful for all of us that are not physically in UAE. Let us know if your trip to RERA was useful.

Your advice is always very useful, I also believe you are very knowledgeable of laws in Duabi, I have a few questions I wanted to ask in case we do eventually take the 'legal action' route.

1. Are 'class action' lawsuits possible in Dubai?
2. Is it possible to appoint a lawyer in Dubai in a way that the legal fees to the lawyer are only paid if the case is won ? otherwise only the costs borne by the lawyer are paid?
3. Given the current circumstances, I believe not many investors would be willing to pay the next installment ... which would mean that the investors have breached the agreement ... do you think if we do take the legal action route, we should do this before such a scenario arises?

Thanks a bunch.

[alanuk]

Hi Everyone.

After such a long time it is hard to believe they are actually beginning construction.

I can`t help wondering what the intentions of the developer really are. I have read that construction costs are now much lower than they were three years ago, possibly allowing the developer to finish the build even if a large portion of the investors default. Thus leaving the developer with a number of units to place on the market for resale while keeping our 20% payments.

I contacted rera by phone a few weeks ago asking for any information about the developer. I specifically asked if they had been issued with a warning over the delay in starting construction but was told that no developer in dubai has yet been issued with such a warning. They were very unhelpful and i get the impression the complaints department aren`t really that interested.

The solicitors acting for Benney investments are Clyde and Co.. If you do a search on them you discover that they are a large international law firm and i`m sure G&G have taken advice from them on how they stand as far Dubai law is concerned and what their best possible options are. The chances of winning a case against them, especially now construction has begun, must be very low.

Whats happening with their other developments, have they also started construction? Are First Gulf Bank lending again?

I have read on some other forums that developers are going through rera and cancelling the investors contracts if they default. But maybe it would be in the developers interest to keep an investor on board by offering a price reduction.

I dont know how things are going to pan out but it looks like we are going to find out in the very near future. if you look at the Sobha Daffodill building in Jumeirah village by an indian developer which was released for sale at the same time as Cappadocia you can see how our investment should have worked out.....completed. Seeing those photos(on this forum) really shows what a bad deal we have had.

Input from any other investors reading this forum would be great, even if just to say you are out there. Any information could be usefull and your views are welcome.If you have any knowledge about the project post it here as everyone needs to make their own decision on whether to make the next payment.

Thanks to willy2010 for all your efforts and sharing your info.

[alanuk]

hi, noman

Any response from our good friend Osman Celiker?

[FJ_cruizer]

guys I think you have been doing an awesome job so far, sorry I couldnt join u in Facebook as I dont have an account but soon just to be able to reach you I ll create one
Honestly speaking I wont be paying a penny until they sue me, cause this is redicilus
I will offer them 3 options
1-reduce the price of the appartment, reason when we bought it per sq meter was 3 times higher than todays price
2-upgrade my apartment without a paying the price difference
3-a good discount and payment option should be spreaded to 32 months payment plan as they are delaying the project around 32 months

Keep in touch

[WILLY2010]

Dear Nonham.

thanks for sharing with us the content of your letter.
i rechecked in details our contract and , more importantly their communication ( progress report &status and notices) to spot possible inconsistencies or contradictions in their timing or reasons put forward to explain the delay.
i basically summarized on an excel sheet the contents of all their letters in a chronological way: for ex, date of plot handover- NOC's obtained, contractors appointed, approval of the building permit etc.... as well as their anticipated completion date they committed to deliver the project... well, it highlights even more, the incredible low speed this project is moving on, which can t be explained only by force majeure. Force majeur refers to an exceptional event like act of "god" . the fact that they are using it consecutively for the same set of reasons completely disqualify its use....
this is key because if we manage to prove they are using the force majeure abusively, we may be entitled to financial compensation , as stated in our contract...
i would like to share my document to some of you ( Nomham-alan, may be others) because you could have a different reading of it , draw different conclusion or may be spot an important element which i could have missed.
i am aware of the creation of a facebook account. However, being not registered yet, i would suggest that i sent those documents to your email address .
my email adress is wilfrid2002@hotmail.com. feel free to mail me.
thx

[nomham]

Hi Everyone,

I have received no response from Mr Osman or anyone else referenced in that email whatsoever.

If we default by any chance, the situation will be in favor of G&G partners, both financially and legally. From a broad perspective this is what they want us to do, so they may not reduce the price of the apartment or offer an upgrade, because to be honest they'll be better off if some or many of the investors default.

They probably already got a significant discount / compensation for what they paid / had to pay Nakheel for the master cummunity planning and development following the economic crisis, and the delay in construction. This could the another "objective" for the delay. I say objective here because In my personal opinion the delay was not incidental, it was fundamental to the achievement of some disclosed objectives for G&G.

Alan, Willy and particularly FJ_cruiser ... Given the current market situation in Dubai, G&G knows that most investors will default (if G&G do not reprice the units or offer a discount), because of the following reasons;

1. Right now, an investor can get a completed unit for a lower (per square foot) price in a better location (Jumeirah Lake Towers) than Cappadocia. - please correct me if I'm wrong.

2. For the remainder 80% of the payments due to G&G partners, an investor can easily get a completed property or a property near completion in the same or better location.

3. They know that Investors will choose to default also because the chances of recovery of the 20% already paid are very slim. If the investors choose to continue with their payments and pay the remainder 80%, chances that the unit would sell at even 80% of the original price are fairly slim. (Given the upto 40% fall in property prices in Dubai) - please correct me if I'm wrong.

What we need to do is to figure out how the law in Dubai can protect and provide justice to the investors in a situation like this.

Although it is fairly simple to understand "in common sense" that the developer is at fault and delayed the project intentionally (in my opinion) and why the investors should be compensated, it is difficult to prove this "legally" because the developer has been very careful to use the legal system to their advantage and all their ill actions are not legally quantifiable (unless we work together to find those that are).

And the delay on their part also facilitates this notion (to default) in the minds of the investors, which could be another objective for the delay.

Alan, I agree Clyde & Co. are a major law firm, the developer has been careful from day one to be on top of the legal system. They probably knew they will need their expertise later.

A quick search on google for G&G parthers shows these links .... Some of their ex employees warning others about the company. This only goes to show G&G Partners' ill intentions not only towards their investors but also their employees.

http://www.discussdubai.com/expats-d...-partners.html
http://www.discussdubai.com/recruitm...struction.html
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-exp...on-t30962.html
http://www.dubaiforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=549

And their job post says "Please send your CV via email" - It appears that they do check their email regularly, but sometimes choose to ignore responding to them based on reasons only they know.

http://www.dubaijobber.com/job/4476/...t-gg-partners/
http://www.dubaijobber.com/job/4477/...t-gg-partners/

(Please always take screenshots of such relevant content and save on your computer - it may not be there after a few days)

Willy I would love to get a copy of your research. Please send it to my email address contactnoman-gmail.com (replace hyphen with an @). Thanks in advance.

As Alan put it and I'd like to repeat:

Input from any other investors reading this forum would be great, even if just to say you are out there. Please respond here just to let us know that you share our concerns !

Thank you all for your contribution and efforts, even if its a tiny bit, I'm sure everyone appriciates it .

Thanks.

[nomham]

!مستثمرون : يرجى تقديم استجابة قصيرة هنا اسمحوا لنا ان نعرف أن كنت واحدا منا ، ولهم نفس القضايا. شكرا لك



I used translate.google.com to translate this line to Arabic "Investors: Please provide a short response here to let us know that you are one of us, and have the same issues. Thank You !". Please correct if there are any mistakes .

[WILLY2010]

Dear Nonham,

i ve sent you today on your gmail mail box the key points of our contract as well as a document describing the sequence of events which have been taking place since the beginning ( january 2008 as far as i am concerned).
In case you have not received it, please contact me.
i am going to use this as a base to the letter which i m going to courier to them .

i completely share your analysis: the market is down, probably for a very long time and the amount forfeited to them because of default might be less painful for the investors than the loss of value of a completed property in JVS.
I confirm that ,for people who have the cash, it may be possible to buy a similar property in JLT, Sillicon oasis etc...for no more than 80% of the value of what we paid for the cappadocia project. In other words,it is possible to buy a property in Dubai -almost ready to move in- without paying (significantly) more than what we expected to pay to make the acquisition of a property in the cappadocia development....

Of course, g&g cannot ignore that reality and that is why i found your analysis of their possible intention quite interesting- the fact that they may have delayed the construction with the purpose to maximise the number of defaulters and cash down their payments .

Your analysis echoes what i read and heard about a general trend which is taking place in Dubai: As Many developpers , stuck by their obligation to deliver a project, cannot take the initiative to cancel it, they resort to this kind of mechanism to clear themselves from their duties. If we look at the bigger picture, it is an efficient way- in the longer run- to regulate the supply of properties in dubai because ultimately a lot of projects will be cancelled...
Sadly those who are asked to foot the bill for the rebalancing of the Dubai real estate market are the investors...
i will keep the forum posted about the content of the letter i am going to send and the response i will get.

thx

[alanuk]

Hi everyone.

if you look at rpdubai.com the inspection notes say work will commence when the building permit is reissued. At some point in the past the permit must have expired or have been retracted by the Dubai land department. ....??????