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Old July 20th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #3221
Clery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
The ridership of the RER E is not so low (over 300,000 passengers per working day) and we shouldn't forget that only half of the line is built.
When the other half will open, the traffic will double (even more according estimation) and with over 600,000 pax, it will be the third busiest RER line.
Don't forget that, according to the current project, RER E will still keep a low frequency, even expanded wesbound. I hardly see how that's sustainable considering the crowd which will be attracted by the line but that's what has been decided.

I believe what Ledindondelafarce says is exactly spot on.

The key difference is a matter of operator :
- The operator of RER C, D and E is the SNCF, the national rail company.
- The main operator of RER A and B is the RATP, the Paris metro company (only some peripheral branches are operated by the SNCF).

Both companies don't have the same priorities :
- RATP has as priority urban transit : maximizing the mass of urban passengers.
- SNCF has as priority national rail : maximizing money coming from the TGV cash machine.

That makes a hell of a difference, as much considering investment than service in itself. SNCF will always prefer the trafic to be lower nearby Paris so that it could ensure its TGVs will arrive on time. RATP on the other side will prefer higher trafic so that it could transport larger crowds.

The way both networks are organized is very interesting in this matter. RER lines from the RATP are managed by line : RER A has its own single management, RER B has its own single management.

On the other side, RER lines from the SNCF have multiple managements : for instance the north of RER D is managed by Gare du Nord network, and the south is managed by Gare de Lyon network. Exactly the same as those managing... TGVs.

As such, SNCF operates RER trains as a gap filler between TGV trains, whereas RATP operates them exactly like it does for its metro lines.

Last edited by Clery; July 20th, 2012 at 09:45 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 12:22 AM   #3222
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République


A little picture with two MF67, before the full withdrawal of this rolling stock on the line.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 02:14 AM   #3223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clery View Post
Don't forget that, according to the current project, RER E will still keep a low frequency, even expanded wesbound. I hardly see how that's sustainable considering the crowd which will be attracted by the line but that's what has been decided.

I believe what Ledindondelafarce says is exactly spot on.

The key difference is a matter of operator :
- The operator of RER C, D and E is the SNCF, the national rail company.
- The main operator of RER A and B is the RATP, the Paris metro company (only some peripheral branches are operated by the SNCF).

Both companies don't have the same priorities :
- RATP has as priority urban transit : maximizing the mass of urban passengers.
- SNCF has as priority national rail : maximizing money coming from the TGV cash machine.

That makes a hell of a difference, as much considering investment than service in itself. SNCF will always prefer the trafic to be lower nearby Paris so that it could ensure its TGVs will arrive on time. RATP on the other side will prefer higher trafic so that it could transport larger crowds.

The way both networks are organized is very interesting in this matter. RER lines from the RATP are managed by line : RER A has its own single management, RER B has its own single management.

On the other side, RER lines from the SNCF have multiple managements : for instance the north of RER D is managed by Gare du Nord network, and the south is managed by Gare de Lyon network. Exactly the same as those managing... TGVs.

As such, SNCF operates RER trains as a gap filler between TGV trains, whereas RATP operates them exactly like it does for its metro lines.
Very interesting argument, but am curious as to where SNCF operates RER and TGV's on the same tracks? Unless I am mistaken out of the 4 main TGV stations the tracks the TGV's use are dedicated until the start of the respective LGV's. Also the RER tracks are seperate too. So not sure how you work out that RER is a filler for TGV's on the SNCF network.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 02:29 AM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
Very interesting argument, but am curious as to where SNCF operates RER and TGV's on the same tracks? Unless I am mistaken out of the 4 main TGV stations the tracks the TGV's use are dedicated until the start of the respective LGV's. Also the RER tracks are seperate too. So not sure how you work out that RER is a filler for TGV's on the SNCF network.
Yeah ok. That one was a bit far-fetched. I just thought that told this way it would show well the RER isn't the priority of the SNCF the way it is for the RATP. But you're right, TGV doesn't share any track with RER.

But the fact the RER is managed through Paris main terminal networks rather than as single lines does have an impact on the way the lines are operated. The RER A and B cross central Paris much faster and with a higher train frequency than RER C, D and E.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 02:29 PM   #3225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
République


A little picture with two MF67, before the full withdrawal of this rolling stock on the line.
Neat photo!

I believe I posted a link here before to the SoundLandscapes Blog. They have several posts that capture the sounds of the MF 67 on before they are completely withdrawn from the line.

It is sad that even though these are the "newer" of the MF 67, that they are deemed "unreliable" in large part and are being retired.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 03:22 PM   #3226
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strange that the newer MF67s would be less reliable than the older ones. I'm curious as to why exactly that is.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 03:58 PM   #3227
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Mostly sealing problems, these trains are parked outside since the extension to Bobigny in 1985.
MF67 were not really made for this.
It also explain why the MF67 of the line 5 have different windows that the other MF67 stock.
Trains were modified to be more waterproof.

Many MF67 of the line 5 were also affected by a flooding at Eglise de Pantin in 1982
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Old July 22nd, 2012, 10:09 PM   #3228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clery View Post
The key difference is a matter of operator
I don't know if the operator really matters, they have to respect what STIF wants them to do, and this is what really matters. RER C couldn't be operated the same way RER A is operated, even if it was RATP's job. SNCF does its job very well IMO with St-Lazare commuter trains, high speed, high frequencies, many express trains.
As for RER E, it is true that in the future it looks very likely to become a kind of enhanced commuter train rather than a metro line, but I don't think much will be needed to make it like A or B line.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 12:21 AM   #3229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledindondelafarce View Post
I don't know if the operator really matters, they have to respect what STIF wants them to do, and this is what really matters. RER C couldn't be operated the same way RER A is operated, even if it was RATP's job. SNCF does its job very well IMO with St-Lazare commuter trains, high speed, high frequencies, many express trains.
As for RER E, it is true that in the future it looks very likely to become a kind of enhanced commuter train rather than a metro line, but I don't think much will be needed to make it like A or B line.
Yeah well... except that back in the old times, there was no STIF. And it's the RATP in itself which has conceived A and B lines.

The CMP, the pre-war ancestor of the RATP has bought the "ligne de Sceaux" in the 1930's. That line was unprofitable so it has been bought rather cheaply... and CMP immediately invested in upgrades in order to improve speed and frequency. So much that back in the 60's, "ligne de Sceaux" was considered as the S line of the Paris metro.

After world war 2, the CMP became the RATP and decided to buy two other unprofitable suburban lines: the Vincennes and St-Germain lines. They had an idea though, to plug one on the other and to offer connexions with the main metro hubs. And that's how it's the RATP in itself which "invented" the RER.

When Delouvrier was delegated by De Gaulle to put some order in the mess of the Paris suburbs, the RATP proposed that plan and Delouvrier accepted it. However, it remains in the first place the idea of the RATP design office.

The investments for lines A and B were huge, but they met immediate success. SNCF proposed then other connexions between its own suburban lines with a far cheaper cost. That's how line C has immediately followen... but it was poorly designed from start. In the same way SNCF told it could operate a line D using the line B tunnel from Gare du Nord to Châtelet, and that wasn't really smarter. What SNCF had seen then was only a way to liberate surface platforms at Gare du Nord. Even today, the SNCF sees in the RER E only a way to liberate platforms in St-Lazare, so it could operate the new line Paris Normandie. SNCF always think "national" as a priority over "urban", that's after all its mission: to operate a national rail network.

The national authorities decided to promote SNCF as the RER operator only because it was at the time the owner of most of the tracks (it was before the RFF split up). If the RATP hadn't bought the Sceaux, Vincennes and St-Germain line, it wouldn't be an RER operator nowadays, and the A and B wouldn't exist in their current shape.

So yes, we can clearly say that the RATP is a better RER manager than the SNCF. There's no doubt about this. And if you "feel" now the A and B lines as metro lines, it's only because there's a metro company operating them. Otherwise they would clearly not have that speed and frequency. Yes, the infrastructures are better, but only because RATP pressured to make them so.

Last edited by Clery; July 23rd, 2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 10:26 PM   #3230
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Seen this way I can only agree with you.
However, those were mistakes of the past and I wonder if this scheme is going to go on. If RER D gets its own tunnel between Gare du Nord and Les Halles, I do hope they will put more than 12tph through it, and the next new rolling stock on this line is supposed to be a new generation of MI2N according to "schéma directeur du matériel roulant". Then very few will be needed to make it RATP-like, maybe shortening northern and southern part and turn them into Transilien lines. I think "schéma directeur du RER C" talks about transforming Massy-Savigny branch in a new tram-train line and everything farther than Brétigny into a new Transilien line from Austerlitz. This should help the line getting better, even if it will never be a real metro-like RER line. As for RER E... it's true that it looks like a cheap extension, without new capacity between Paris and Normandy it won't be really helpful to the west, even if it will help people commuting from Paris and eastern suburbs to La Défense.
Things are changing, I think programs such as "RER B Nord +" greatly improve the SNCF part of RER B, and show that SNCF do care about Paris urban mass transit, even if it was pushed by STIF or anyone else.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 11:07 AM   #3231
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Père Lachaise
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Old July 24th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #3232
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Neat photo.

Should the discussions above regarding the RER be better discussed in the RER thread?

====

Next 3 movements for the MP 89CC to

*#48 - 7/25
*#05 - 8/1
*#06 - 8/29

Notice the gap in August.

Last edited by HARTride 2012; July 25th, 2012 at 02:21 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 05:18 AM   #3233
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MA 51 - 1991

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Old July 26th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #3234
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Thank you for the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HARTride 2012 View Post
Next 3 movements for the MP 89CC to

*#48 - 7/25
*#05 - 8/1
*#06 - 8/29

Notice the gap in August.
Paris shut down in August, it is a well know fact.
The city activity is low between the July 15 to the first September.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #3235
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Oh wow, so I guess that explains the "gap" then.

As for the videos. I do not know where they originate from. The user is PROCY88
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #3236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Thank you for the video.


Paris shut down in August, it is a well know fact.
The city activity is low between the July 15 to the first September.
Not that long. It's more something like from the July 20th to the August 20th.

Generally the last week of august most office buildings are full again.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #3237
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Isn't that because most of the French go on holiday during August?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #3238
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More like September, not August so much.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #3239
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No, it is August the month when almost everybody go in holiday.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #3240
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Was this during rush hour?

Perhaps the RATP should consider installing PSD's at the busiest stations on Line 4 after the withdrawal of the MP 59.
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