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Old August 20th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #1381
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Thanks. Looks pretty interesting for a one-station extension
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 08:00 PM   #1382
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Paris metro ridership since 2000

In million of passengers
  • 2000: 1,247
  • 2001: 1,266
  • 2002: 1,283
  • 2003: 1,248
  • 2004: 1,336
  • 2005: 1,365
  • 2006: 1,409
  • 2007: 1,388
  • 2008: 1,472
  • 2009: 1,479

In 2009, Paris metro was the fifth busiest subway network in the world (after Tokyo, Moscow, Seoul and New York).
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 08:59 PM   #1383
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Not that bad for a city centre network !! (unlike the NYC, Tokyo, Moscow & Seoul networks)
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:07 PM   #1384
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Tokyo subway system is also a city centre network.
Anyway Paris metro needs to go further in suburbs.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 09:48 PM   #1385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
In 2009, Paris metro was the fifth busiest subway network in the world (after Tokyo, Moscow, Seoul and New York).
Where was London in the list? I'm just wondering because it just seemed to me that London had more/longer trains & were always busy! In Paris, the Metro is less frequent, and we could always get a seat!

Mind you, I suppose it does depend on where abouts we are, and time of year.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 10:21 PM   #1386
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Quote:
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and we could always get a seat!

I suppose it does depend on where abouts we are, and time of year.
It can depend.......indeed :



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Old August 23rd, 2010, 10:31 PM   #1387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianjohnson View Post
Where was London in the list? I'm just wondering because it just seemed to me that London had more/longer trains & were always busy! In Paris, the Metro is less frequent, and we could always get a seat!
The LU comes in #10 worldwide (1.09 billion/annum vs. 1.48 billion/annum for Paris). But this figure doesn't include Docklands Light Rail, National Rail, and the Overground (figure would then be 2.9 billion a year).

To be fair, the Paris figure doesn't include RER.

No less authoritative source than Wikipedia:
Metro systems by annual passenger rides
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 10:46 PM   #1388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
It can depend.......indeed :



Using Métro is worthwhile, nearly always
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 11:00 PM   #1389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianjohnson View Post
Where was London in the list? I'm just wondering because it just seemed to me that London had more/longer trains & were always busy! In Paris, the Metro is less frequent, and we could always get a seat!
Paris metro is more frequent than London Underground, infact Paris metro is one of most frequent subway network in the world with Moscow.
Most of the lines have more than 30 tph.

Quote:
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The LU comes in #10 worldwide (1.09 billion/annum vs. 1.48 billion/annum for Paris). But this figure doesn't include Docklands Light Rail, National Rail, and the Overground (figure would then be 2.9 billion a year).
I clearly doubt of this 2.9 billion figure for London, the last time I checked data, National Rail had only 700 million passengers.
It seems to be more an overstatement of a wikipedia user than the reality.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:10 AM   #1390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Paris metro is more frequent than London Underground, infact Paris metro is one of most frequent subway network in the world with Moscow.
Most of the lines have more than 30 tph.



I clearly doubt of this 2.9 billion figure for London, the last time I checked data, National Rail had only 700 million passengers.
It seems to be more an overstatement of a wikipedia user than the reality.
I live in London and was just in Paris; every time I use the tube there's a train within three minutes (even at 11pm). On the other hand, I had to wait between four and seven minutes for a train during rush hour on the Métro and that was over a week's worth of observation. However, it's also important to note that the smaller distance between stops allows RATP to run service more frequently because there are smaller signalling blocks, but the passenger throughput and capacity is relatively similar.

My question is why RATP refuses to use longitudinal seating. Even on Line 1, the busiest in Europe, it's still a mix. Problems arising from transversal seating are numerous, including lower capacity, increased dwell times (since passengers cannot move easily throughout the car to cram more people in), and wasted space as many would rather stand than sit next to or across from someone else. This goes for the RER as well.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:25 AM   #1391
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Weird because the non peak frequencies are higher, where you in Paris in August ?
In August Paris slow down, the city is far less busy and so the metro is less frequent during this month.

About the longitudinal seating, many (including me) complain about this fact.
PS : The line 1 is not the busiest metro line Europe, several lines carrying more passengers in Moscow.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:35 AM   #1392
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The line 1 is the busiest line on paris network...
Facts and figures there, page 16:
http://www.stif.info/IMG/pdf/STIF_Les_chiffres_2005.pdf
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:43 AM   #1393
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Yes, it is the busiest of Paris metro network (with 213 million passengers in 2008) but not the busiest in Europe.

A nice video of Paris metro, mostly on the line 1.

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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:48 AM   #1394
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I was in Paris in July. About train frequencies, as I said before RATP may be able to have more tph because there are more dwell points (stations). In systems such as the tube, no two trains can normally run between the same two stations unless the line is automated, such as the Jubilee line with SelTrac. This, in practice, lowers the ideal frequency. However, in terms of capacity, London has an edge. Let's look at the Jubilee line and Line 1, which both carry a high volume on a non-branching line with the most frequent service in the system (as I presume Line 1 does, in fact, have the highest frequency). I'm going to use 30 trains per hour since even the most advanced automatic systems usually use 2 minute gaps; MTR barely surpasses such a number.

Jubilee: 964 passengers per train * 28 tph = 26,992 people/hour
Line 1: 722 passengers per train * 30 tph = 21,660 people/hour

Thus the Jubilee line, despite having two fewer trains per hour, carries almost 25% more passengers than Line 1. Since both are overcrowded, the numbers are of course subject to dispute in terms of their value, but this is theoretical.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #1395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Yes, it is the busiest of Paris metro network (with 213 million passengers in 2008) but not the busiest in Europe.

A nice video of Paris metro, mostly on the line 1.

Ça existe des systèmes de métro peu bruyant ?
There are less noisy subways in europe or in the world?

The new wagon on the 2nd line are such a pain to my ears :s
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #1396
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July is about the same than August.

The line 1 is the busiest but it is not the line with the highest frequencies, it is not even the line with the highest capacity.
13 of the 16 lines are automated, one is driverless (line 14) and the line 1 will become driverless.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #1397
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Indeed,
as far I know, the line with the (potentially) highest capacity is line 14 since it's the only line where trains can have 8 cars (vs only 6 cars on lines 1 & 4 and 5 cars on most other lines)

Ligne 14, 120m stations (75m on other lines, 90m on lines 1 & 4) :






Last edited by parcdesprinces; August 24th, 2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #1398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I clearly doubt of this 2.9 billion figure for London, the last time I checked data, National Rail had only 700 million passengers. It seems to be more an overstatement of a wikipedia user than the reality.
It seems too high to me, too. I couldn't find any reliable figures for Inter-London travel on the National Railways. Is the 700 million figure you quoted for the whole national system or only for Inter-London journeys? I found a figure for the DLR that says annual ridership was 60 million, and for the London Overground about 11 million, so their impact is fairly small.

But if we're going to include the DLR and the London Overground in with the LU, we'd have to include the Paris trams in with Paris Metro, and I couldn't find any solid figures for ridership for those.

The bottom line is comparing only LU to Paris Metro, Paris Metro has about 36% more annual passenger rides. Purely from an anecdotal standpoint, I think that the French are more likely to use trains of any sort than the British. And London, while not a great or easy place to drive by any stretch, is quite a bit more car-friendly than Paris.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #1399
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With wider, straighter boulevards especially, I would have thought Paris would be slightly easier to drive in (I underscore the fact that both are evil for driving). Then again, the same could be said for DC and look how painful that is to drive in. LU vs Metro is slightly unfair in that South London isn't served by the tube despite being only slightly less urban than North London. Let's say that SWT, Southern, and Southeastern serve about half as many people as LU in South London, that's still 1.5bn/annum. Add the perennially congested Thameslink into the works and the number should grow even more. It all boils down to a matter of semantics and what counts as rapid transport. Either way, both are incredibly congested, whilst reliable, systems that need some investment to be even better…although RATP should get some air fresheners as the passageways always reek of urine.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 02:24 AM   #1400
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The core of the Paris urban area is just more densely populated than the core of the London urban area. It's as simple as that.

- In the most central 100 km², Paris is twice more populated than London
- In the most central 350 km², Paris is 50% more populated than London
- In the most central 1500 km², Paris is 20% more populated than London


The central core being more packed, it's natural that public transportation generates more traffic. This is true for the subway, but also for suburban rails (including RER, overground...) and the urban motorways. However, the London bus network is busier than its Paris equivalent.

Last edited by Metropolitan 3.0; August 25th, 2010 at 04:13 AM.
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