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Old December 14th, 2009, 11:15 AM   #381
nachalnik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
Short section of this line between station Petržalka and Austrian border is going to be double-tracked. The project has already approvals, I'm surprised there's nothing going on in Austria. Will second track end at the border?
Double-tracking this line has no priority in Austria, as it still has much free capacity.

Capacity is limited between Bruck/Leitha and Vienna (double track line, with much additional local traffic + trains to/from Hungary), so running much more trains between Parndorf and Petrzalka would not improve the situation between Vienna and Bruck/Leitha...


Quote:
Both lines (via Marchegg and Kittsee) are part of TEN-T 17 Paris - Bratislava. Slovakia will get quite some money from eurofunds between 2007 and 2013 for connection of TEN-T 17 and TEN-T 23. Entire Bratislava hub will be rebuilt. Scale of the changes will be similar if not bigger than changes after construction of new Hauptbahnhof in Vienna. I've expected these changes won't stop at the border.

I know of this plans, and I know that Slovakia prefers the Kittsee-route even for long distance Intercity-trains, alltough it is longer than via Marchegg.

However, as far as I understood those plans with a new tunnel line from Petrzalka across downton Bratislava, no real central station is planned in Bratislava, instead of that two stations (one for the axis Vienna - Kittsee - Petrzalka - Trnava - Zilina - Kosice and one for the axis Praha - Breclav - Kuty - DNV - Nove Zamky - Budapest) are planned.
Is that true? How should passengers between those axis make transfers? Without a real central station I don't see the big advantage of that plan.
For InterCity-trains like Vienna - Kosice the route via Stadlau - Marchegg - DNV - Bratislava hl. st. is perfect, for local trains from Vienna via Kittsee the terminal at Petrzalka is also not too bad and for freight trains the existing line from Petrzalka across Bratislava is fast enough...


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Old December 14th, 2009, 04:47 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
Double-tracking this line has no priority in Austria, as it still has much free capacity.

Capacity is limited between Bruck/Leitha and Vienna (double track line, with much additional local traffic + trains to/from Hungary), so running much more trains between Parndorf and Petrzalka would not improve the situation between Vienna and Bruck/Leitha...





I know of this plans, and I know that Slovakia prefers the Kittsee-route even for long distance Intercity-trains, alltough it is longer than via Marchegg.

However, as far as I understood those plans with a new tunnel line from Petrzalka across downton Bratislava, no real central station is planned in Bratislava, instead of that two stations (one for the axis Vienna - Kittsee - Petrzalka - Trnava - Zilina - Kosice and one for the axis Praha - Breclav - Kuty - DNV - Nove Zamky - Budapest) are planned.
Is that true? How should passengers between those axis make transfers? Without a real central station I don't see the big advantage of that plan.
For InterCity-trains like Vienna - Kosice the route via Stadlau - Marchegg - DNV - Bratislava hl. st. is perfect, for local trains from Vienna via Kittsee the terminal at Petrzalka is also not too bad and for freight trains the existing line from Petrzalka across Bratislava is fast enough...


Nachalnik
IC trains from Žilina vie Kittsee to Vienna will be the only possibility if there won't be proper line via Marchegg.

Bratislava Hlavná stanica will remain main station for majority of EN, EC, IC and Ex trains from Prague, Břeclav, Budapest, Košice, Žilina and Banská Bystrica. Question is what will be with Vienna. IMO line via Marchegg and thus also via Hlavná stanica would be better for elite trains. Line under Bratislava downtown and via Kittsee would be better for local trains and something like S-Bahn.

Bratislava Hlavná stanica is overcrowded and there's no possibility to add new platforms (just check it in Google Maps. It will remain station for elite trains and some fast trains because it's the only station where all important corridors cross, others will use mostly new line under the downtown. This is why I think line via Marchegg and Stadlau should be electrified and double-tracked ASAP.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
IC trains from Žilina vie Kittsee to Vienna will be the only possibility if there won't be proper line via Marchegg.
Well, once Gänserndorf - Marchegg - DNV is electrified, IC-trains can run via this line, it takes maybe 5-10 longer than via the direct line Stadlau - Marchegg, but is still much faster than via Kittsee.

The main advantage of electric traction is that a change of the engine can be avoided. Through trains Munich - Wien Hbf - Bratislava hl. st. - Kosice would be theoretically possible.

However, upgrading the Stadlau-Marchegg-line must be the next logical step.



Quote:
Bratislava Hlavná stanica will remain main station for majority of EN, EC, IC and Ex trains from Prague, Břeclav, Budapest, Košice, Žilina and Banská Bystrica. Question is what will be with Vienna. IMO line via Marchegg and thus also via Hlavná stanica would be better for elite trains.

I'm with you.

Quote:
Line under Bratislava downtown and via Kittsee would be better for local trains and something like S-Bahn.
It would be also interesting to rebuild the line Wolfsthal - Petrzalka.

Quote:
Bratislava Hlavná stanica is overcrowded

It would have much capacity, if it was used as a through-station with only few trains, which start/end there.
For through trains a stop of 3 minutes would be enough. Bratislava hl. st. has 9 platform tracks + 2 tracks for transit-trains (freight-trains). That is enough, Vienna main station will have 10 platform tracks.


With an half-hourly system of local trains around Bratislava, I'm thinking of that routes:

Wien - Marchegg - Bratislava hl. st. - Trnava: every 30 minutes
(as regional express train till Bratislava, continuing as stopping train)

Breclav - Bratislava hl. st. - Nove Zamky: every 30 minutes
(stopping train)

Wien - Bratislava hl. st. - Zilina - Kosice: every 60 minutes
(Intercity train)

Praha/Ostrava - Bratislava hl. st. - Budapest: every 60/120 minutes
(Intercity train)

Bratislava hl st - Dunajska Streda: every 30 minutes
(stopping train)


Thats 8 trains per hour per direction. Through trains west-east (to Trnava, Kosice, Nove Zamky, Budapest) use platform 1,2,3 (counted from the main buliding, I don't know the real numbers). Three platform tracks for 8 trains per hour mean 2,67 trains per platform per hour. That must be possible.
East-west-trains use platforms 4,5,6.

Platforms 7,8 and 9 can be used for additional ending/beginning trains during peak-times.

For comparison:
Vienna main station will have ~16 trains per hour per direction, these are the eastbound trains (m ost of them come from somewhere else, some also will start at Vienna main station):

up to 4 long-distance-trains (to Breclav and beyond, to Bratislava and beyond, to the airport, to Budapest)
4 S-Bahn trains to Stadlau and beyond
2 S-Bahn trains to the airport
2 S-Bahn trains to Bruck/Leitha
1 REX train to Bratislava hl. st.
1 REX train to Bratislava Petrzalka
1 REX train to Györ
1 REX train to Fertöszentmiklos/Eisenstadt



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Old December 16th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #384
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Lainzer Tunnel in Vienna under construction (november 2009):




This tunnel will provide the direct connection from the Westbahn to Wien-Meidling (and from there to the nwe Wien Hauptbahnhof).


Koralmbahn Graz - Klagenfurt under construction (april 2009):

Hengsbergtunnel between Werndorf and Wettmannstätten:






Near the eastern end of the 34-km-long Koralmtunnel:



Some photos from another website (http://www.styria-mobile.at/home/oebb/Bauberichte):


Near Werndorf:


Near Wettmannstätten:


Near Koralmtunnel (eastern end)



The Koralmbahn will provide a direct route between Graz (2nd largest town in Austria) and Klagenfurt, total length is 126 km. Travel time will be ~50-55 minutes (dependinmg on intermediate stops) instead of now 2h45 (via Leoben).
Also the travel time from Vienna to Klagenfurt and beyond (Venice etc) will be shortened by 30 minutes. This trains will in future run via Graz instead of via Leoben.
The Koralmbahn is due to open in 2020, total costs are at around 5 billion EUR (2009 prices).


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Old December 17th, 2009, 10:45 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
Well, once Gänserndorf - Marchegg - DNV is electrified, IC-trains can run via this line, it takes maybe 5-10 longer than via the direct line Stadlau - Marchegg, but is still much faster than via Kittsee.

The main advantage of electric traction is that a change of the engine can be avoided. Through trains Munich - Wien Hbf - Bratislava hl. st. - Kosice would be theoretically possible.

However, upgrading the Stadlau-Marchegg-line must be the next logical step.
Considering small distance between Bratislava and Vienna that detour is quite big, but, you're right, it's still shorter than line via Kittsee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
I'm with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
It would be also interesting to rebuild the line Wolfsthal - Petrzalka.
That would be great. It would be not only decent regional line, but also direct connection of Bratislava and Vienna airports. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough will on both sides to rebuilt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
It would have much capacity, if it was used as a through-station with only few trains, which start/end there.
For through trains a stop of 3 minutes would be enough. Bratislava hl. st. has 9 platform tracks + 2 tracks for transit-trains (freight-trains). That is enough, Vienna main station will have 10 platform tracks.
Now overwhelming majority of trains start/stop at the hlavná stanica and it's gonna stay like that. You know, some IC or R (fast train) from Žilina or Košice with ten carriages would be way too big to continue to Vienna, there isn't demand for such huge trains between BA and W. There are also another reasons why it's not good idea. After 445 km and almost 5-6 hours long journey those trains require some maintenance and cleaning. Well, it can be done also in Vienna, but our railway companies would have difficulties with finding reasonable agreement in this. There can also appear delays which would destroy train frequency between BA and W. Of course, there should be some ICs Vienna - Košice, but not all trains Košice - Bratislava could be extended to Vienna. I would rather suggest extension of Ex Hron from Banská Bystrica to Vienna and maybe also some fast train Vienna - Nitra.

Bratislava hl. st. will remain terminal station for majority of trains from Žilina (Košice), but, it's possible to create through regional trains Vienna - Trnava and Břeclav/Kúty - Nové Zámky, however majority of regional trains will be rerouted to station Bratislava filiálka (in the tunnel) and Petržalka anyway. Long distance trains Prague - Bratislava - Budapest and vice versa just pass the station also now, but there are also trains Bratislava - Prague and all of them start/stop at the hl. st. There is also plenty of other trains to/from all Slovak regions which start/stop at hl. st. Many of them can be rerouted to the tunnel and station Petržalka, but for now hl. st. is the only option.

BTW, another problem of Bratislava hl. st is some platforms aren't long enough and there's no space to enlarge them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
With an half-hourly system of local trains around Bratislava, I'm thinking of that routes...
This is way too optimist. There's already 30 minute frequency between Bratislava and Trnava, however, frequency between Bratislava and Vienna should be lower if we don't want empty trains there.
Břeclav - Bratislava hl. st. - Nové Zámky 30 minutes sounds good, but only in peak hours, otherwise the trains would be quite empty for the rest of the day.
IC Vienna - Košice every hour is also too many, there isn't so many ICs even between Bratislava and Košice. There is fast train every two hours, in peak time every hour and some ICs between them.
Bratislava hl. st. - Dunajská Streda every 30 minutes would be also too much outside peak hours.

Last edited by Qwert; December 18th, 2009 at 01:07 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 12:59 AM   #386
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Regarding 30 minutes frequency, I wanted to create a PESSIMISTIC scenario regarding track capacity in Bratislava hl. st.

OK, fast trains to Kosice might start/end at Bratislava, but there is no reason against through-local trains from say Breclav/Kuty to say Nove Zamky. If most local trains only stop at Bratislava hl. st. for a few minutes, then the station has enough capacity.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 01:26 AM   #387
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Regarding Wien - Bratislava via Gänserndorf, I've calculated the travel times from Wien Hbf to Bratislava hl st (no intermedita stops, 1x16 with 7 waggons, technical travel time) for comparison:

- via direct line Stadlau - Marchegg:
with current speed limits: ~42 min (with diesel traction (2016): ~43 min)
with 160 km/h upgrade Stadlau - Marchegg border: ~37min


- via Stadlau - Gänserndorf - Marchegg:
with current speed limits: ~51min
with 120 km/h upgrade Gänserndorf - Marchegg border (will be done with electrification): ~48min
with 160 km/h upgrade Süssenbrunn - Gänserndorf: ~46min

So, with the electrification of Gänserndorf - Marchegg IC-trains can be routed via Gänserndorf, travel time would be 5 minutes more than via current Stadlau - Marchegg line.
In the long term, only Stadlau - Marchegg can be a solution.


However, it also necessary to improve speeds on the Slovakian part. Especially the 1,4 km long 30 km/h section just before Bratislava hl. st. costs much time.
The alignment should allow ~120 km/h untill the end of the tunnel (km 53,6), and from there to the platforms the turnouts should designed for ~60 km/h.
With improvements like this on the Slovakian side, the travel time can be reduced by further 5 minutes.

Total travel time via direct line would then be ~32 minutes + 10% buffer = ~35 minutes.
200 km/h (instead of 160 km/h) between Stadlau and Marchegg would save 2 more minutes, but I doubt whether it's worth the additional costs (other signalisation, all level crossings have to be removed, other type of catenary...).


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Old December 18th, 2009, 07:35 PM   #388
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The only advantage of the electrification of Gänserndorf - Marchegg border is that in case of some long distance train (...- Bratislava - Vienna) it's not necessary to change loco (well, it wouldn't be necessary if there was some electric three system loco which can operate in both Austria and Slovakia, for now there isn't such loco) what can save about 10 minutes, but since it's 5 minutes longer it will save only 5 minutes.

Slovakia is going to modernise just short section between Devínska Nová Ves and Austrian border (electrification, second track and increased speed). That 30 km/h section before hl. st. probably won't be upgraded soon. It's in tunnel and there's not enough funds for it. I guess for the same amount of money we can upgrade entire section between the tunnel and Devínska Nová Ves to 140/160 km/h.

200 km/h between Stadlau and Marchegg is IMO logic. It's basically straight so no land purchases are necessary. I don't know about Austria, but in Slovakia there's no difference between signalisation for 160 km/h and 200 km/h lines and level crossing aren't allowed on majority of 160 km/h lines. It's because line Bratislava - Košice is being modernised to 160+30% and it's supposed to allow tilting units to operate at 200 km/h. Some direct train Košice - Vienna almost without any interruption at 200 km/h would be great.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 12:43 AM   #389
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The connection to Bratislava is a sole disgrace for Austria. This is one if not the longest damn straight pieces of track in Austria and to top it it connects the largest city of of Austria with the half million city Bratislava. It hardly could cost a fortune to bring this pathetic track up to date, full electrification would the the very least one could expect. I guess its also rather shortsighted to not turn it fully into a double track.

I really don't get it, they are burning millions in the Koralmtunnel which hardly anyone conceives to be a sensible investment but for a connection like Vienna-Marchegg-Bratislava, where relative little investments would greatly improve the infrastructure, they can't afford more than some half hearted actions at best...
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Old December 19th, 2009, 05:53 AM   #390
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Why the Austrian government didn't modernize the Vienna-Bratislava line?
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Old December 19th, 2009, 10:21 PM   #391
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The demolition of the old Südbahnhof has started now. The Meidling station is going to temporarily replace it for the next 3 years or so to a large extend. The rest of the trains will arrive on a temporary railwaystation south of the old Südbahnhof, just outside the construction site.

New models show the larger main station area and how it is planned to look like when finished:







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Old December 20th, 2009, 01:05 PM   #392
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Wow....great photos!!
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Old December 20th, 2009, 01:34 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Why the Austrian government didn't modernize the Vienna-Bratislava line?

...good question....
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Old December 20th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I really don't get it, they are burning millions in the Koralmtunnel which hardly anyone conceives to be a sensible investment but for a connection like Vienna-Marchegg-Bratislava, where relative little investments would greatly improve the infrastructure, they can't afford more than some half hearted actions at best...
That's politics for you, Slartibartfas. (BTW, are you named after the literary character or the band? ) There is one towering figure in recent Austrian history who made the Koralmbahn his priority. That person was Joerg Haider, rightwing populist and former governor in Carinthia. His provincial capital, Klagenfurt, is a major beneficiary of the new tunnel and he went out on a limb to make sure that it would get the tunnel. (He even threatened to complain legally in case OBB set back the date of construction starts.) It couldn't be clearer that with the Westbahn out of Vienna and the preparations for the new Brenner connection, the government's ultra-rightwing nemesis demanded "ein Stueck vom Kuchen" for his region... and received it.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 08:01 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post


The Koralmbahn will provide a direct route between Graz (2nd largest town in Austria) and Klagenfurt, total length is 126 km. Travel time will be ~50-55 minutes (dependinmg on intermediate stops) instead of now 2h45 (via Leoben).
Also the travel time from Vienna to Klagenfurt and beyond (Venice etc) will be shortened by 30 minutes. This trains will in future run via Graz instead of via Leoben.
The Koralmbahn is due to open in 2020, total costs are at around 5 billion EUR (2009 prices).


Nachalnik
Why is it going to open so late, in 2020?Some sections seems really advanced with construction works.

Last edited by panda80; December 21st, 2009 at 08:59 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 08:42 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panda80 View Post
Why is it going to open so late, in 2020?Some sections seems really advanced with construction works.

The first section will already be opened in december 2010, and will be used for the transportation of the rock material from the Koralm-tunnel construction site, as well as for improved local trains Graz - Wettmannstäten - Deutschlandsberg.

Construction of the Koralmtunnel has just begun in march 2009, and as it is a 34 km long tunnel, it will take some time...



BTW, the decision to build the Koralmbahn was made in 1995, long before Jörg Haider and his party FPÖ/BZÖ had much political influence in the province Carinthia.
I don't have any sympathy for Haider and the FPÖ/BZÖ, and I admit that there are more important projects for Austria. But I don't consider the Koralmbahn as totally useless. It will not only improve connections to Carinthia, but it will also re-route the axis Vienna - Carinthia - Italy via Graz (which is the 2nd largest town in Austria and currently bypassed by this route).


@panda80: It would be better, if you removed the photos from your quotation. I think it's enough, if they are shown in the original post - that improves the overview in this thread and reduces bandwith usage...
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Old December 20th, 2009, 08:53 PM   #397
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BTW, here are some detailed maps showing the route of the Koralmbahn:

Werndorf - Wettmannstätten:
http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...nst_090826.pdf

Wettmannstätten - Lavanttal:
http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...-St.Andrae.pdf

Lavanttal - Aich:
http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...ich_090826.pdf

Aich - Althofen:
http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...en_090818b.pdf

Althofen - Klagenfurt:
http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...urt_090826.pdf

green = finished
blue = under construction
red = planned


The section from Graz to Werndorf will be built later (maybe after 2025). Untill then, trains will use the Südbahn-line (double track) between Graz and Werndorf and will change at Werndorf to the Koralmbahn.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 09:01 PM   #398
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Koralmbahn constrcution site at the new station "Lavanttal":







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Old December 21st, 2009, 01:05 AM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
That's politics for you, Slartibartfas. (BTW, are you named after the literary character or the band? )
The book, but my avatar is in its own right, its Slartibartfas not Slartibartfast I had no clue there was a band...

Quote:
There is one towering figure in recent Austrian history who made the Koralmbahn his priority. That person was Joerg Haider, rightwing populist and former governor in Carinthia. His provincial capital, Klagenfurt, is a major beneficiary of the new tunnel and he went out on a limb to make sure that it would get the tunnel. (He even threatened to complain legally in case OBB set back the date of construction starts.) It couldn't be clearer that with the Westbahn out of Vienna and the preparations for the new Brenner connection, the government's ultra-rightwing nemesis demanded "ein Stueck vom Kuchen" for his region... and received it.
Well, I am perfectly aware of that and now his successors succeeded in making all Austrians pay for their finance disaster as well. (Hypo...)

I am a fan of rail investments, but when I see the Koralmbahn, I just can't help myself thinking about all the stuff that would be sooo much more important and also offer a far better reward in exchange. The point is, that the Koralmbahn does not even make so much sense for longer connections either.

But I know, politics does not has to appease Bratislava, thats a different country, but it has to appease those Karawankenbären...
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Old February 15th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #400
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..

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