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Old July 18th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #661
flierfy
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UIC Standards are not binding in anyway though. That is why I am talking about EU standards. Those standards are not bollocks since you'd have to change your entire rolling stock and every single station. Can you imagine of how much money we're talking about here just to remove an minor obstacle? You can't remove steps entirely anyway. If you lift entrance height to a level where steps are obsolet you can't use double decker trains (really important in some parts of Austria) anymore or you'd have to build in a step inside the car. So your just shifting the "problem" from one end to another.
That's not true. You can very well remove steps entirely as various rail system around the worlds demonstrate. All it takes are high-level platforms. The S-Bahn in Berlin is step-free and the entire railway network in Japan is step-free as well. Except for their double-decker carriages where stairs were built in deliberately.
Which brings me back to Austria where double-decker carriages are neither essential nor would it make any difference at high-level platforms as the number of steps remains the same.

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And yes, right now you can enter Talents and Double Decker trains without steps.
Entering maybe. But you won't get very far without climbing steps.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
That's not true. You can very well remove steps entirely as various rail system around the worlds demonstrate. All it takes are high-level platforms. The S-Bahn in Berlin is step-free and the entire railway network in Japan is step-free as well. Except for their double-decker carriages where stairs were built in deliberately.
Which brings me back to Austria where double-decker carriages are neither essential nor would it make any difference at high-level platforms as the number of steps remains the same.

Entering maybe. But you won't get very far without climbing steps.
1) Vienna's S-Bahn network is also becoming step-free as the old 4020s are being replaced with Talent 2 trains.

2) Double decker trains are highly essential for Vienna's regional rail network. Otherwise it would collapse completely. You can't get rid of them.

3) Talent and double deckers in Austria are step-free. Inside and outside. So I got no idea what the hell you're talking about.

4) A closed network like the Berlin S-Bahn is step free, yes, but apart from that? Japan definitely is not, as you already mentioned in your post. So what are the various countries without steps?
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Old July 19th, 2012, 08:30 AM   #663
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I do perfectly well know what I'm talking about. I'm not so sure about you though. The whole point of platforms is to lift passengers to the height of the floor level of the carriages and just to the lowest step. In fact steps are meant to be removed entirely. This, however, can't be achieve with platforms as shallow as 55 cm. And that is why this standard, which are a UIC standard by the way, is simply bollocks.

Tell me, what should the height be then?

What height will achieve step free access to any and every train around?
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Old July 19th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #664
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If you are going to standardize, you got to start somewhere and choose a standard.

That is why I think EU should roll out not only mandatory ECTS in all non-self contained railways, but also 25kV, 60Hz electrification and whatever uniform platform height (the higher the better as it deters illegal track crossing in stations). No upgrade or update work should be allowed without bringing the tracks concerned to these new standards - except in closed systems like subway networks...
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Old July 19th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #665
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The S-Bahn in Berlin is step-free and the entire railway network in Japan is step-free as well.
The Salzburg S-Bahn is Step Free as well. What is your complaint?

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Old July 19th, 2012, 10:35 AM   #666
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If you are going to standardize, you got to start somewhere and choose a standard.

That is why I think EU should roll out not only mandatory ECTS in all non-self contained railways, but also 25kV, 60Hz electrification and whatever uniform platform height (the higher the better as it deters illegal track crossing in stations). No upgrade or update work should be allowed without bringing the tracks concerned to these new standards - except in closed systems like subway networks...
Good utopian idea but I can't see that happening. Also why 60Hz when the whole of Europe uses 50Hz or a fraction of that? Even closed systems have mixed heights, like the London underground. Do you know how much work it would be to raise every platform in an entire country?
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Old July 19th, 2012, 10:45 AM   #667
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50Hz I meant, sorry,
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Old July 19th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #668
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If you are going to standardize, you got to start somewhere and choose a standard.

That is why I think EU should roll out not only mandatory ECTS in all non-self contained railways, but also 25kV, 60Hz electrification and whatever uniform platform height (the higher the better as it deters illegal track crossing in stations). No upgrade or update work should be allowed without bringing the tracks concerned to these new standards - except in closed systems like subway networks...
Mandating a universal electrification system is completely unnecessary.
Mandating ECTS is basically happening right now.
As to platform heights. The problem here is basically that it is quite complicated.
You don't want "as high as possible". Deterring track crossing can be done with a cheap fence if needed.
The 550mm that many European railways use has the advantage that you can easily have step free access both in single level and double deck stock. So that is a good choice for networks that use both.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #669
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Tell me, what should the height be then?

What height will achieve step free access to any and every train around?
120 cm for high speed services and 96 cm for all other services.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The Salzburg S-Bahn is Step Free as well.
No, it is not. Bombardier's Talents have lots of step as have Stadler's Flirts. And don't get me started on double decker carriages.

For those who can't spot the steps I marked them:

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Old July 19th, 2012, 02:43 PM   #670
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And as you also see, you can access many seats before you even get to those stairs.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
120 cm for high speed services and 96 cm for all other services.
120 cm cm means that you step _down_ when entering a TGV Duplex, if it's able to open its doors, that is.
And most stations that receive high speed services receive other services as well, at the same platforms. What hight will you build them there?

It's impossible to build platforms to a height such as that all trains will have step free access. Priority should be given to providing step free access to local trains, so that people in wheelchairs can use public transport to commute. For long distance trains the need is less pressing because those trains are usually staffed, stop at staffed stations, and have longer dwell times.

So for some networks 550 mm makes a lot of sense.

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No, it is not. Bombardier's Talents have lots of step as have Stadler's Flirts.
Internal steps are not a problem. A person in a wheelchair does not need access to the whole vehicle.

Quote:
And don't get me started on double decker carriages.
So how would you design a double deck carriage?

The IC2000 carriage has step free access to the whole lower level, but only as long as the platforms are 550mm high...
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Old July 19th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #672
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The importance of those internal steps is underlined by the fact that using a small ramp instead of those steps would be very easy, but it's not used because it's not necessary.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 06:08 PM   #673
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The importance of those internal steps is underlined by the fact that using a small ramp instead of those steps would be very easy, but it's not used because it's not necessary.
ÖBB's double-decker carriages have those ramps when you enter.

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Old July 19th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
And as you also see, you can access many seats before you even get to those stairs.
And you mean that the other seats are for decoration purposes only?

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
120 cm cm means that you step _down_ when entering a TGV Duplex, if it's able to open its doors, that is.
Well, then try a proper high-speed train whose floor level perfectly matches a 120 cm high platform. Like this one for instance:

image hosted on flickr


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And most stations that receive high speed services receive other services as well, at the same platforms. What hight will you build them there?
That's simple. High-speed services get their dedicated tracks and platforms as they do have in Japan and China.

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It's impossible to build platforms to a height such as that all trains will have step free access.
It is very well possible. I told you how it works. And it does work elsewhere already and even partly here in Europe. It just doesn't work as long as we stick to low level platforms.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Priority should be given to providing step free access to local trains, so that people in wheelchairs can use public transport to commute. For long distance trains the need is less pressing because those trains are usually staffed, stop at staffed stations, and have longer dwell times.
You do very well know that this is an awful excuse for an indefensible ****-up. Long distance services are required to be step-free just in the same way as local services. And staff has not been employed to assist people onto trains. They have other duties. So don't try to defend this third-rate solution.

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Internal steps are not a problem. A person in a wheelchair does not need access to the whole vehicle.
Services don't run just for people in wheelchairs. And internal steps are problematic in some regards for all people even if they're not prohibitive for them.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So how would you design a double deck carriage?
I wouldn't design them at all. I'd run longer single floor trainsets and/or more services instead.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The IC2000 carriage has step free access to the whole lower level, but only as long as the platforms are 550mm high...
DB-Classes 420-422, 470-474 and 480-485 have step-free access on a 96 cm platform to all parts of the train and not just 40% of it. How good is that then in comparison?
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Old July 19th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #675
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And you mean that the other seats are for decoration purposes only?
If you're that handicapped that you can't even climb one single step, you shouldn't be too picky with your seat choice. Take the one closest to the door.

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Well, then try a proper high-speed train whose floor level perfectly matches a 120 cm high platform. Like this one for instance:
Again a closed network, like the S-Bahn in Berlin, with dedicated HSR service only. Completely useless on a network where double decker trains are essential.

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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
That's simple. High-speed services get their dedicated tracks and platforms as they do have in Japan and China.
Austria does not have dedicated tracks and platforms. HS trains use the same platforms as regional trains and that is for a good reason. This allows people to transfer to another train without the need of changing platforms:

http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de/...teig/index.jsp

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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It is very well possible. I told you how it works. And it does work elsewhere already and even partly here in Europe. It just doesn't work as long as we stick to low level platforms.
Nope, you just pick single closed networks like HSR in China and Japan and claim the entire railway network there would be step-free (as we already know from the double decker Shinkansen it's not the case with HSR in Japan).

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You do very well know that this is an awful excuse for an indefensible ****-up. Long distance services are required to be step-free just in the same way as local services. And staff has not been employed to assist people onto trains. They have other duties. So don't try to defend this third-rate solution.
That is no excuse, that is the lived reality. Of course they are employed to help people onto the train, who can't do so by themselves. Long distance trains stop at least 5 minutes at every stop. The Austrian Railjet even has a built-in elevator to lift people in their wheelchairs onto the train.

image hosted on flickr

Hebelift im railjet wird aufgebaut von Martin Ladstaetter auf Flickr

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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
I wouldn't design them at all. I'd run longer single floor trainsets and/or more services instead.
So they were created for the lulz?

On the Stammstrecke in Vienna regional trains run every 3 minutes during peak hours. Without double decker trains the system would collapse. Or take the RER or S-Bahn Zurich as another example of how bizarre that idea is.


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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
DB-Classes 420-422, 470-474 and 480-485 have step-free access on a 96 cm platform to all parts of the train and not just 40% of it. How good is that then in comparison?
Is there a country with only handicapped people to require a number bigger than 40 %?
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Old July 20th, 2012, 01:58 AM   #676
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Guys, it is possible to run both double and single deck trains from high level platfroms you know.
Cue, Sydney!


New Waratah trains, no-step access.



image hosted on flickr

CityRail explorer, single-deck.

Am I missing something?
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Old July 20th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #677
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Apparently it is possible, the costs of building everything new still does not justify such adaptions. It is simply not possible since the current rolling stock can't operate at high platforms. You'd have to change everything over night and we're talking about 500 EMUs, 3.200 single coaches plus 1.143 stations.

It's ridiculiously cheaper to help really old granny onto the long distance coach the one time a year she actually uses these trains, whereas she uses the regional trains way more often and these trains are barrier free.
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Old July 20th, 2012, 09:27 AM   #678
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Guys, it is possible to run both double and single deck trains from high level platfroms you know.
Cue, Sydney!


New Waratah trains, no-step access.
But a TGV duplex pulling alongside the same platform won't even be able to open its doors...
(Where's the accessible toilet on that train btw...)

Which again underlines my point: It's impossible to provide step free access to all trains if you have a major hub that receives trains from all over Europe.

If you only have to cater for a limited number of train types, yes, you can build so that you have step free access to all of them. But the Waratah sets for example don't have the continuous upper level that for example the TGV Duplex or the IC2000 has. And that is a very nice thing to have too. But that configuration requires the entrance to be at the lower level.

So building platforms at 550mm, and building double deckers so you enter at the lower level is a good compromise too...

Last edited by K_; July 20th, 2012 at 09:48 AM.
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Old July 20th, 2012, 09:36 AM   #679
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And you mean that the other seats are for decoration purposes only?
So you mean that people can't negotiate steps?

Quote:
That's simple. High-speed services get their dedicated tracks and platforms as they do have in Japan and China.
Are you going to pay for that?

Quote:
I wouldn't design them at all. I'd run longer single floor trainsets and/or more services instead.
That is not always possible. The TGV Duplex was designed to solve a problem that was not solvable in another way.

1Basically what you are doing here is engaging in the Nirvana fallacy. You're rejecting a solution because it isn't perfect. However assuming a perfect solution is possible is a fallacy.

In the real world compromises must be made. In a network that has a long history as the European rail network, and with the level of integration that we have it is not possible to easily implement solutions that are practical in small or new networks.
Also the amount of resources available is not unlimited. I am against the tendency of trying to solve everything regardless of how much money needs to move from the taxpayers pockets in to those of building firms.

So SBB and ÖBB have decided to build their platforms at 550mm. This means that for a large proportion of trains on their network, and all local trains step free access to a large part of the vehicle is possible.
And for those trains where this is not possible you can just employ people to assist.
It's not a perfect world. Learn to live with that.
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Old July 20th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #680
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Suburbanist 2.0. Why are you even paying attention?
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