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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #721
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Salzy looks amazing! Will have to take a trip next weekend to see the station.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #722
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We need aerial night pictures of that railway station!
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o0ink View Post
Salzburg - Main Station: The platforms 1,2,3,4 and 5 were opened a while ago and they are building the last two platforms (6 and 7) at the moment.
They are not the last platforms, there will be also platforms 8+9.

BTW, thanks for the great photos.


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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Nice station!

What about the new Bosruck tunnel I saw as planned on the Schweer&Wall rail atlas?

It was decided to built a new tunnel instead of renovating the existing tunnel (which is in a bad condition and anyway would require an expensive upgrade to newest safety requirements).

The most significant benefit from the new tunnel would be a lower gradient (by eliminating the ascent from Selzthal to Ardning), which is important for freight traffic.
It would also reduce travel time (distance shortened by ~2 km, higher speed) and - together with other project on the Pyhrnbahn - enable a travel time of ~2,5 hrs between Graz and Linz in the future (maybe late 2020ies...).

However, construction won't start before 2019, as the construction is not yet included in the "Rahmenplan" (current 2013-2018 version: http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/gesam..._oebb_2013.pdf)



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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
They are not the last platforms, there will be also platforms 8+9.

BTW, thanks for the great photos.


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Oh, sorry - I really didn't know that. Man, than means that this station probably gets more amazing than I ever thought... I'm a idiot.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
It would also reduce travel time (distance shortened by ~2 km, higher speed) and - together with other project on the Pyhrnbahn - enable a travel time of ~2,5 hrs between Graz and Linz in the future (maybe late 2020ies...).
What is the current travel time? To be honest even the future one isn't all that great given that one could drive from one place to another in only a bit more than 2 hours.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 08:09 PM   #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
What is the current travel time?
~3h20.

Quote:
To be honest even the future one isn't all that great given that one could drive from one place to another in only a bit more than 2 hours.

Well, a travel time of 2 hrs would require a totally new alignment between the Bosrucktunnel and Kirchdorf (with lots of tunnels and bridges) and a new direct line from Graz to St Michael.... not realistic to happen within the next 100 years.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #728
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One question, what are the hard limits on the westbahn in terms of speed. Is it the tracks/cateneries/etc or is it curve radius/gradient?
My question simply revolves around the idea of how expensive it would be to upgrade the line to a "true" high-speed line (300km/h or even 350+). Just curious....alas I am aware that this is unlikely to happen within the next 30 years or so.
Also why did they chose 250 as limit and didnt go further up?



ups, I lied, it's two questions now :P
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Old November 9th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post
One question, what are the hard limits on the westbahn in terms of speed. Is it the tracks/cateneries/etc or is it curve radius/gradient?
Wien - St. Pölten: alignment designed for 250 km/h, technical equipment for 250 km/h

St. Pölten - St Valentin: alignment designed for 250 km/h (except around Amstettem: 160 km/h), technical equipment for 200 km/h

St Valentin - Linz Kleinmünchen: alignment designed for 250 km/h, technical equipment for 250 km/h

An upgrade to 250 km/h is planned between St. Pölten and Linz in the future. Catenary and some swichtes have to be exchanged, the cant of some curves has to be increased.
However, speed around the stations of St. Pölten and Amstetten will be limited to 80 km/h respectively 160 km/h due to the alignment.



Quote:
My question simply revolves around the idea of how expensive it would be to upgrade the line to a "true" high-speed line (300km/h or even 350+). Just curious....alas I am aware that this is unlikely to happen within the next 30 years or so.
The new lines in Austria were never designed for true highspeed.
The basic idea were:
- increasing capacity
- as fast as necessary, not as fast as possible

As fast as necessary means that ideal travel times between the hub should be reached to optimize connections in an integrated timetable.
The Swiss have shown how to bring such a system to perfection.

For the Westbahn Wien - Linz the planned travel times, which the new line will enable in the end, come from this hub-concept:
railjet: Wien (30) - St. Pölten (00) - Linz (45/15)
IC: Wien (00) - St. Pölten (30) - Amstetten (00) - St Valentin (15/45) -Linz (30).


A few images to explain the basic principle of such an hub-oriented system:









That's IMHO the better approach in a part of Europe, where youn won't find a population structure with justifies real HSR.
The big towns generating enough passenger flow over long distances (300 km/h makes no real sense, if the train stops every 100 km...) are missing.
Wien - Budapest or Wien - Munich can't be compared with Paris - London or Rhein/Ruhr area - Bruxelles...


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Old November 9th, 2012, 11:44 PM   #730
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If you put it that way that makes a lot of sense, yeah. Thanks for the reply Nachalnik
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Old November 10th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #731
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Austria is quite similar to Switzerland (in size, population distribution etc) so modeling their railway system on the Swiss one makes perfect sense.

Speed is nothing special, but punctuality, predictability of a time table and frequency of the service is really admirable. The system is starting to get noticeably more crowded, though...
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Old November 10th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post
If you put it that way that makes a lot of sense, yeah. Thanks for the reply Nachalnik

You're welcome.

BTW, the complete hub-system for all the main axis will probably look as follows in 2025 (after completion of Koralmbahn and Semmeringtunnel, but no new line east of Salzburg yet):


railjet Budapest - Wien - Salzburg:
Budapest (~00) - Györ (~30) - Wien (30) - St. Pölten (00) - Linz (45/15) - Salzburg (~00)

IC Wien - Salzburg:
Wien (00) - St. Pölten (30) - Amstetten (00) - St Valentin (15/45) -Linz (30) - Wels (45/15) - Attnang-P (00) - Salzburg (~00)

railjet/IC Salzburg - Innsbruck - Bregenz/Zürich:
Salzburg (~00) - (Wörgl (15/45)) - Innsbruck (45/15) - Landeck (30) - Bludenz (30) - Feldkirch (45/15) - Bregenz (15/45)/Buchs SG (~15/45) - Zürich (30)

IC Wien - Graz - Villach
Wien (00) - Wr Neustadt (30) - Mürzzuschlag (00) - Bruck/M (~30) - Graz (00) - Klagenfurt (00) - Villach (30)

railjet/EC Wien - Graz - SLO/Villach-IT
Wien (30) - Graz (~15/45) - Maribor - .../Klagenfurt (~00) - Villach (30) - Udine - ....

IC Salzburg - Villach - SLO
Salzburg (~00) - Bischofshofen (45/15) - Schwarzach-St Veit (00) - Villach (30) - Ljubljana - ...

IC Graz - Bruck - Selzthal - Bischofshofen - Salzburg/Innsbruck:
Graz (00) - Bruck (~30) - Selzthal (~30) - Bischofshofen (15/45) - Salzburg (~00)/Wörgl (15/45) - Innsbruck (45/15)

RJ/EC Wien - Breclav and beyond
Wien (00 or 30) - Breclav (00 or 30) - ...

RJ/EC Wien - Bratislava and beyond
Wien (00 or 30) - Bratislava (45/15 or 15/45) - ...



-> based on a combination of http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/__r...odeId=24317321 (page 43) and my own ideas (~270 pages of own ITF-related ideas can be downloaded here: http://www.taktfahrplan.info/2010/06...ma-thesis.html...)

Last edited by nachalnik; November 10th, 2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #733
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Salzburg Hbf = railway porn
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Old November 11th, 2012, 11:52 PM   #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Speed is nothing special,
Absurd statement.

With low ruling speeds (usually a product of ruling grades and curve radii), you take longer to complete a given trip. Simple as that.

It is 2012, and you still can't travel in less than 4 hours between Brengez and Wien. Isn't that a bad situation?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:23 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Absurd statement.

With low ruling speeds (usually a product of ruling grades and curve radii), you take longer to complete a given trip. Simple as that.

It is 2012, and you still can't travel in less than 4 hours between Brengez and Wien. Isn't that a bad situation?
???

First of all I was talking about Swiss system and second I said that the speed there is not particularly fast.

As for your example, Bregenz is a small town a very long way from Vienna. You might be able to cover this distance in less than 4 hours by driving to Zurich airport (ca 1 1/2 h) and flying from there.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:05 PM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
???

First of all I was talking about Swiss system and second I said that the speed there is not particularly fast.

As for your example, Bregenz is a small town a very long way from Vienna. You might be able to cover this distance in less than 4 hours by driving to Zurich airport (ca 1 1/2 h) and flying from there.
Possibly (even though 4 hours for the entire journey, everything included sounds a bit short) but a 7 hour railjet ride without a single transfer is probably a lot more relaxing than that, especially if you can use your laptop to do whatever.

PS: While speed matters it is not everything. Also when it comes to trains. That is why the Swiss system makes sense. Your journey time includes potentially necessary transfers and the more efficient they are the faster you are in the end. If a train is half an hour faster but you loose 40 min due to inefficient transfers, the only thing that you end up is having used more energy while needing longer for the given journey.
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; November 12th, 2012 at 10:11 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:29 AM   #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
PS: While speed matters it is not everything. Also when it comes to trains. That is why the Swiss system makes sense. Your journey time includes potentially necessary transfers and the more efficient they are the faster you are in the end. If a train is half an hour faster but you loose 40 min due to inefficient transfers, the only thing that you end up is having used more energy while needing longer for the given journey.
That's obvious, but Suburbanist will not trust you

(just last week I nearly lost the 60 minutes I gained thanks to the Frecciarossa because of Trenitalia bad timetable - nearly because I managed to take a connecting train which wasn't planned to connect with mine)
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:31 AM   #738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
PS: While speed matters it is not everything. Also when it comes to trains. That is why the Swiss system makes sense. Your journey time includes potentially necessary transfers and the more efficient they are the faster you are in the end. If a train is half an hour faster but you loose 40 min due to inefficient transfers, the only thing that you end up is having used more energy while needing longer for the given journey.
It is better to wait on a transfer point for a faster train idling in a station that has sufficient amenities for passengers than spend more time riding a slower-moving train!
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

It is better to wait on a transfer point for a faster train idling in a station that has sufficient amenities for passengers than spend more time riding a slower-moving train!
And again you demonstrate your ignorance...

Psychology matters in transportation. And one of the things everyone who has some experience planning public transport knows is this: time is relative. the passage of time is experienced differently depending on the situation. One hour spend on a moving vehicle is subjectively perceived as being less long than one hour spend waiting.
If you want to make train travel agreeable, so more people take trains you have to reduce the time spend waiting for the next train. That means that frequency and punctuality is important. Missing a connection, or turning up at the station finding that the next train is not due for two hours is what makes people decide to get in their car again next time.
All successful railway companies know this. You obviously even refuse to know this...
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #740
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Missing a connection or waiting too long are different animals.

I'm talking of a situation like this

Scenario A
- slow train 44 min + 11 min waiting time + 155 min medium speed train = total 210 min

Scenario B
- slow train 44 min + 64 min waiting time + 102 min high-speed train = total 210 min

If schedules are known (e.g., no delay or unreliable service) and the waiting point is a good station with Wi-Fi, restaurants, a business lounge if you need so, then Scenario B is preferable to A, since a station offers a wider arrange of services and amenities than a moving train.

Now if the transfer station is an open platform exposed to the elements without a place to sit and with beggars and panhandlers in sight, then I concede Scenario A is preferable.
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