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Old June 1st, 2016, 08:00 PM   #1281
Slartibartfas
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Some well researched hard facts. But I am not as negative about HSR as the author. Competitiveness for routes under 2 hours has been shown to be extremely high towards aviation, up to 4 hours HSR remains strong and up to 6 hours still somewhat competitive.

The problem is similar to subway vs tram. For a long time Vienna radically closed down any tram lines even with weak redundancy to new subway lines. The reasoning was obvious but as obvious was the fact that it was done against the interests of the customers. It doesn't have to be like that and the responsible people seem to have realized that by now. It hink for heavy rail this realization has yet to claim ground.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 08:40 PM   #1282
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I agree

There is still a wide consideration of HSR as an evolutionary step of railways, meant to completely substitute "the old trains".
In fact it's just another instrument added to the system. It should be meant to substitute other modes, not other trains (or at least not completely).
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Old June 1st, 2016, 08:49 PM   #1283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
The problem is similar to subway vs tram. For a long time Vienna radically closed down any tram lines even with weak redundancy to new subway lines. The reasoning was obvious but as obvious was the fact that it was done against the interests of the customers.
It is said, that this is one of the main reason why the people of Zürich rejected a subway twice. In both proposals the subway would have replaced the trams.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 09:32 PM   #1284
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With all the downsides and I think also some problematic choices I do think that Vienna is better off with its subway system though. Still, Vienna retained a very substantial tram network and I think we slowly moved away from a shrinking one to a slowly growing one again. If I am not mistaken it is one of not so many Western European cities that has retained such a sizable tram network (but then, that might be because it is actually not all so "Western European" anyway ) So Vienna is in fact about the integration of different modes which do have their place and work in combination by creating a seamless system within the city proper.

Zürichs central and dense parts are much more compact with the urban area extending along heavy rail line corridors, if I am not mistaken. So the situation is different there and trams in combination with light rail and S-Bahn might be the best solution actually.

To get back to heavy rail, I think the ÖBB is taking a good path here, having some modest HSR, without the prohbitive price scheme with huge price fluctuations seen with some other national railways and at the same time it actually incraeses its night train services as an addition. And on top of that all local services are increasingly integrated with fast trains in a highly syncronized timetable. Of course, that is something shamelessly copied from the Swiss
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 11:57 AM   #1285
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The article certainly has some valid points, however also some limitations. The perspective is certainly very West European, where companies like Thalys and Renfe really have horrible price hikes compared to the standard network. With ÖBB and DB, the price difference between an IC and an ICE is not that huge (admittedly neither is the speed difference). And we must admit, the greater the distance the fewer the passengers. Also we must discuss high-speed trains not only against the backdrop of efficient EuroCity connections 30 years ago, but against the backdrop of today's existing airplane competition. Do more people travel from Paris to Marseille because it is fast by HSR? Yes, but HSR also prevents people from flying to Marseille, so the overall effect is positive.
Having said that, trains should definitively not be withdrawn from routes over 4-6 hours, and there the niche of night trains plays an important role. If DB had killed the Munich-Berlin night train in 2018, when supposedly the journey time of ICEs will be cut to 4 hours, I would have said, for *'s sake, kill it, the night train may be hard to run after that. But killing the Elipsos just because there are now some daytime HS trains between Barcelona and Paris really made no sense. In the long run, I do believe HS nigh trains would be a way to go to grab a share of the market that does not exist yet.
Prices of travel are political, and in the greater scheme of things, that is where changes have to be made. If air and road travel will have to shoulder the damage costs to the environment, health, and urban development, then rail travel will become more competitive. At the present rate, railways have hardly a chance.
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 09:10 PM   #1286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Zürichs central and dense parts are much more compact with the urban area extending along heavy rail line corridors, if I am not mistaken. So the situation is different there and trams in combination with light rail and S-Bahn might be the best solution actually.
Those corridors are defined by topography. But yes the S-Bahn tram combination helps a lot. But there is probably not a lot more capacity to squeeze out of that system. Would be an interesting discussion for the Zürich suburban thread.
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 12:16 AM   #1287
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Quote:
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In the long run, I do believe HS nigh trains would be a way to go to grab a share of the market that does not exist yet.
HS night trains are a bit problematic as most HSR corridors are closed for maintenance during night as the high speed takes its toll and also has much stricter quality requirements of the track, or so I have heard.

That might explain why they are so rare.
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 12:35 AM   #1288
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True, and also: the aim of most HSLs is to reduce travel times to a few hours (let's say 4 or less, usually).

One thing is leaving around midnight, sleeping for 6-8 hours and being dropped at destination in the morning. But with a HS service you would sleep for 3-4 hours and be dropped in a city center in the middle of the night with nowhere to go (or depart in the middle of the night).
Exactly what happens to air travellers, spending horrible half-nights in airport halls.
Every time I book a night train I have people laughing at my ridiculously long journey, compared to air trips of 2h or less. Then I laugh at them losing half a day of vacation just for the travel, or spending 2h on a plane and 6 more on an airport bench...

This is the exact reason why HSR cannot fully substitute night trains: the point of a night train is to combine sleeping and travelling time (and thus sparing a hotel night as well). A faster travel gives no added value, and in most cases it's actually less attractive.

I believe there is space, on crowded corridors, for late night and early morning HS services (let's say 22-01 or 04-07), but night trains are a whole different thing.
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 09:04 AM   #1289
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Some people simply can't sleep in night trains.
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 03:21 PM   #1290
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Then there's plenty of comfortable airport benches for them
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 09:02 PM   #1291
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Old June 3rd, 2016, 10:59 PM   #1292
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Quote:
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Some people simply can't sleep in night trains.
Those people don't have to take them. There are plenty of customers for night trains. It's a myth that they are abolished because of a lack of customers.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 01:12 AM   #1293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
True, and also: the aim of most HSLs is to reduce travel times to a few hours (let's say 4 or less, usually).

One thing is leaving around midnight, sleeping for 6-8 hours and being dropped at destination in the morning. But with a HS service you would sleep for 3-4 hours and be dropped in a city center in the middle of the night with nowhere to go (or depart in the middle of the night).
Exactly what happens to air travellers, spending horrible half-nights in airport halls.
Every time I book a night train I have people laughing at my ridiculously long journey, compared to air trips of 2h or less. Then I laugh at them losing half a day of vacation just for the travel, or spending 2h on a plane and 6 more on an airport bench...

This is the exact reason why HSR cannot fully substitute night trains: the point of a night train is to combine sleeping and travelling time (and thus sparing a hotel night as well). A faster travel gives no added value, and in most cases it's actually less attractive.

I believe there is space, on crowded corridors, for late night and early morning HS services (let's say 22-01 or 04-07), but night trains are a whole different thing.
Night trains already make long stops. When I went to Milan from Vienna our train was parked somewhere along the border for 2 hours. Same happened when going from Munich to Amsterdam, train sat in cologne for hours.

I think HSR night trains could make longer overnight journeys more possible
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Old June 4th, 2016, 12:26 PM   #1294
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Yes, Wilhelm, of course there is no point in running a 4 hour HSR with sleepers at midnight from Berlin to Munich. The idea would be to make long overnight runs such as London - Barcelona, London - Berlin, Berlin - Rome, Paris - Vienna. Such runs would initially be expensive and cater to a small audience, but maybe this would change over time and with the planned lowering of network access fees, who knows. And since Elipsos with its rather prohibitive prices managed to fill its beds and seats, why not. Overnight maintenance of lines would of course have to be changed, but as these trains will not be so numerous, one could possibly just limit the hours for maintenance. Or as in Germany, periodically close the lines, rather than closing them every night.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 04:34 PM   #1295
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Well, that could be an idea. Even with the existing 200 km/h cars, much less expensive and more flexible than true HSTs, it would be enough speed to cover long distances overnight (provided that the HSLs advantage is the ability to mantain the top speed for long stretches).

Another advantage of using HSLs is that they're basically flat and straight, this should help those who find it difficult to sleep on a train. Especially running at 200 on a 300 line

But maintenance is still a problem. HSR needs a constant control of the track alignment to guarantee 300+ km/h. I appreciate the German way of heavy overhauls once in a while but it could hardly be applied to HSR; it would mean having severe speed limits for weeks or months before the overhaul.

This is not a heavy limit for night trains operations: those trains would run in limited numbers anyway, hardly more than 4-6 per night on the most crowded corridors, so it shouldn't be a problem to fix them in between maintenance operations (single track, reduced speed, etc.).
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Old June 12th, 2016, 12:09 AM   #1296
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We missed this news from January: the Styrian parliament decided to build again a railway from Bad Radkersburg to Slovenia (Gornja Radgona), including a border bridge over the Mur, which was blown up by Nazis in 1945. I believe Slovenia will construct its missing part as well.

http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2753309/
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Old June 13th, 2016, 03:28 PM   #1297
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From Global Rail News:

Quote:
http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/0...rd-tv-service/

ÖBB launches world’s first live onboard TV service
13 JUN, 2016



Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB), in partnership with Nomad Digital, has launched the railway’s first live onboard TV service.

Delivered in time for the European Football Championships in France, the service is now in use on two Railjet trains. Nomad has described it as the first live TV broadcast on a train anywhere in the world

...
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Old July 21st, 2016, 01:58 AM   #1298
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Tender for new coaches for long distance trains (daytime and overnight trains):
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...-and-dmus.html

Also in German language:
http://www.eurailpress.de/news/wirts...wagen-aus.html
http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOT...:DE:HTML&src=0
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Old July 21st, 2016, 02:24 AM   #1299
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Good to see that OBB are continuing to invest in locomotive hauled stock. I do like the Taurus locos.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 01:19 PM   #1300
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Finally some control cars. I hope they'll order enough for the domestic ICs as well, not just for the München - Italy EC.
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