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Old January 6th, 2018, 02:23 PM   #1401
nachalnik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touya View Post
Vienna-Frankfurt will never be significantly less than 5:30 hours, unfortunately.

This is because the travel time target for Munich - Frankfurt via Stuttgart, when all the missing HSLs are complete, will be 2:30. Via Nurnberg it's 3 hours now and again may be 2:30 in the foreseeable future. The section Munich - Salzburg - Vienna is designed with a target of 3 hours.
There is no such target.
There are no plans for any HSL between Salzburg and Munich as well as for the section Attnang-Puchheim - Neumarkt-Köstendorf (between Salzburg and Linz).
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Old January 6th, 2018, 03:16 PM   #1402
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There is no such target.
There are no plans for any HSL between Salzburg and Munich as well as for the section Attnang-Puchheim - Neumarkt-Köstendorf (between Salzburg and Linz).

And also the piece from Neumarkt to Salzburg, with a total of 16km of new tunnels (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47...7.8998/13.1479) currently is envisioned to be open in maybe 15 years ...



The plan is to maybe have all approvals ready and start construction around 2026:
http://infrastruktur.oebb.at/de/proj...um-die-planung

Maybe by the time they actually start building this, there will also be plans to upgrade from Attnang to Neumarkt...
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Old January 6th, 2018, 07:24 PM   #1403
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Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
There is no such target.
There are no plans for any HSL between Salzburg and Munich as well as for the section Attnang-Puchheim - Neumarkt-Köstendorf (between Salzburg and Linz).
OEBB did officially mention that each leg of the line Vienna - Linz - Salzburg path would eventually take 1 hour. Linz-Salzburg via the tunnel pictured above and (I guess) upgrading of the Neumarkt to Linz section (I assume it would be strange not to fully 4-track the whole line).

As for the section to Munich, indeed, I double checked and I made a mistake. Salzburg - Munich via Mühldorf could be done in 1 hour only if it's upgraded to allow 200km/h, the current plans only call for 160km/h and a 1:15 travel time.

That said, there is part of a pseudo-HSL design (200km/h?) in the area: the quadrupling of the northern approach for the new Brenner line, along with the eastern cord to Chiemsee (maybe built with Austrian money?). I'm wondering if this could help attaining 60 minutes of travel time.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 08:35 PM   #1404
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OEBB did officially mention that each leg of the line Vienna - Linz - Salzburg path would eventually take 1 hour.
This was maybe 20 years ago. That's history, you can forget that.
Also Wien - Linz will see no further travel time reduction from current 1h14.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 09:10 PM   #1405
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So the 1-2-3 concept is officially dead?
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Old January 6th, 2018, 10:46 PM   #1406
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So the 1-2-3 concept is officially dead?
Was it ever alive? I mean that would have required the Germans to be on board with it and I very much doubt they ever even committed themselves to the idea.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:12 PM   #1407
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The new railway lines in England are designed for speed of 250 mph (400 kmph). I suppose that all new lines on the Continent should follow the same - indeed Europe (EU) has relatively small territory and this is the only place in the world where the rialway lines, if designed for such speeds, can be a viable alternative to the planes.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 02:52 PM   #1408
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Was it ever alive? I mean that would have required the Germans to be on board with it and I very much doubt they ever even committed themselves to the idea.
I agree. Still, that doesn't explain why the ~1 h to Linz ~2 h to Sbg plan was given up.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 10:07 AM   #1409
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I have a question about the Neue Westbahn. The design speed is 250km/h and as I understand, during test period the line was tested up to 330km/h. What about the platforms next to main tracks (e.g. Pöchlarn), if the platform is only 55cm high then the impact on dynamics of passing train is negligible?
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Old January 10th, 2018, 10:20 AM   #1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bench_mark_2 View Post
The new railway lines in England are designed for speed of 250 mph (400 kmph). I suppose that all new lines on the Continent should follow the same - indeed Europe (EU) has relatively small territory and this is the only place in the world where the rialway lines, if designed for such speeds, can be a viable alternative to the planes.
I do not think there should be such simple standard. It really depends on several traits like population density, direction and strength of passenger flows, distance between cities.

Imagine there could be two very close important cities that no passenger train should left out. Increasing the speed may reduce the travel time by few minutes but the construction costs could be increased by incredible amount of money = no money for value.

It is very rare when increasing the maximum speed is favourable in terms of money.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 09:13 PM   #1411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
I have a question about the Neue Westbahn. The design speed is 250km/h and as I understand, during test period the line was tested up to 330km/h. What about the platforms next to main tracks (e.g. Pöchlarn), if the platform is only 55cm high then the impact on dynamics of passing train is negligible?

Maximum speed next to platforms is 230 km/h.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:47 AM   #1412
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Can you give more details about such platforms (for 230 km/h)? I mean rules of build, specification, etc. Also maybe do you know, are such platforms (e.g. Neumarkt bei Lambach) comply with TSI?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:25 AM   #1413
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Can you give more details about such platforms (for 230 km/h)? I mean rules of build, specification, etc. Also maybe do you know, are such platforms (e.g. Neumarkt bei Lambach) comply with TSI?
I don't know the details, but of course the upgraded line near Neukirchen (not Neumarkt) bei Lambach fullfills TSI requirements.

BTW, §20 of https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFa...ummer=20006077 says:
(4) Auf Bahnsteigen an Gleisen, die mit einer Geschwindigkeit von mehr als 160 km/h befahren werden, sind die bei der Vorbeifahrt von Schienenfahrzeugen freizuhaltenden Flächen rot einzufärben. Bei mehr als 200 km/h sind Vorkehrungen zu treffen, dass sich keine Bahnbenützenden im Gefahrenbereich auf den Bahnsteigen aufhalten.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:44 AM   #1414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
I agree. Still, that doesn't explain why the ~1 h to Linz ~2 h to Sbg plan was given up.
I'd like to read some official statement, or at least a news article on that because I really can't explain such a U-turn.

This said, maybe 1h Vienna-Linz is difficult to attain, especially if even the fastest RJs keep stopping at St. Polten and Meidling (neither of the two were originally meant to be stops for RJs), but Vienna-Salzburg with the new tunnel in 2h seems entirely attainable (the whole line is less than 320km, so you need to attain 160km/h on average).

What I'd like to understand is if all the sections on the line which allow for 200km/h will allow for more than that when ERTMS is installed (by year 2030).

Last edited by touya; January 11th, 2018 at 11:50 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 02:09 PM   #1415
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Vienna Meidling to Linz is done in 1:07 at the moment; and often they actually chose the last (first) stop in Vienna when citing official travel times, so the 1h was maybe meant from Meidling anyway. Not stopping in Meidling wouldn't save that much, as the train is anyhow slow from Hauptbahnhof to Meidling.

If you take away the stop in St. Pölten, you get to maybe 1:04 or so. But I doubt that this makes sense.
I think that there are no plans for any further upgrade to Linz, though not all parts of the track seem to be for 230 km/h, quite some sections are at 200 km/h, according to openrailwaymap, e.g. http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=...style=maxspeed

I think the only planned upgrades still are around Linz station (http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=...style=maxspeed), but I think that is mostly for capacity increase, not really increasing maxspeed.

If money wasn't an issue, Linz station would really be a candidate for tunneling under, to get rid of that really curvy area.. But these projects don't progress well in Germany time and money wise, so maybe good that they didn't try it here :-)
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Old January 12th, 2018, 09:55 AM   #1416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachalnik View Post
I don't know the details, but of course the upgraded line near Neukirchen (not Neumarkt) bei Lambach fullfills TSI requirements.
I think there is no point to define the max speed next to platform in TSI as this is matter of solution used, the point is to provide satisfying level of safety. Actually if I remember right then in Japan they pass the platforms already at speed of category P1.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:01 PM   #1417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Vienna Meidling to Linz is done in 1:07 at the moment; and often they actually chose the last (first) stop in Vienna when citing official travel times, so the 1h was maybe meant from Meidling anyway. Not stopping in Meidling wouldn't save that much, as the train is anyhow slow from Hauptbahnhof to Meidling.
But Meidling was not part of the original stop pattern for RJs. I do remember this perfectly. Most people were surprised that RJ stopped at Meidling too, when the HS tunnel from St. Polten was opened.

Quote:
I think that there are no plans for any further upgrade to Linz, though not all parts of the track seem to be for 230 km/h, quite some sections are at 200 km/h, according to openrailwaymap, e.g. http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=...style=maxspeed
I fear Openrailwaymaps sometimes report the maximum speed of trains on a section, rather than the line's design maximum. I can't see any reason why the Amstetten-Ybbs section is 250 but the Amstetten-Linz is only 200. Both sections seem to have the same design constraints (large curves, same loading gauges...). Maybe LZB at 250km/h is more expensive than LZB at 200km/h and at a certain point in time it was decided to save money and wait for ERTMS?

Many of OEBB Infrastruktur works seem dictated by OEBB Personenverkehr commercial policies, honestly.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 04:44 PM   #1418
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But Meidling was not part of the original stop pattern for RJs. I do remember this perfectly. Most people were surprised that RJ stopped at Meidling too, when the HS tunnel from St. Polten was opened.
No, a railjet-stop in Meidling was always part of the timetable concepts for Wien Hbf.

Not stopping in Meidling would actually increase travel times for a lot of passengers, and the negative effect would exceed the positive effects of a few minutes less for pax to/from Wien Hbf by far.
A huge percentage of pax on the railjet leave the train already at Wien Meidling, to connect to underground line U6 or to trains of the Südbahn. Going via Hbf would mean much longer travel times for those passengers.

That's why a stop in Meidling was always considered in the timetable concepts.
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