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Old December 15th, 2014, 03:48 PM   #1081
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Originally Posted by Mac_07 View Post
First Pendolino train in Poland:

Let's be honest. 350km in +3hours, after some modernizations...That's kinda embarrassing, really. Also why the hell they decided that train has to stop on those small stations? What's the point?
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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:16 PM   #1082
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Why embarrassing? It's not on a purpose built HS line. Significantly faster than driving and that's the most important point.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:01 AM   #1083
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I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but why did PKP order non-tilting Pendolino trains? Couldn't they have increased operating speeds if they'd opted for tilting trains or is there an issue why that's not possbile or practical (loading gauge limitations, for example)?

Last edited by Rebasepoiss; December 16th, 2014 at 09:16 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:15 AM   #1084
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I was wondering too about this issue but I read somewhere that decision was motivated by the fact there is too little curves on a track to make tilt system profitable.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #1085
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That is right. On Warszawa - Gdańsk route there would be only 5 minutes saved, on Warszawa - Kraków 2 minutes, on Warszawa - Katowice 0 minutes. Don't know about Warszawa - Wrocław, there are many tight curves.

Last edited by Sponsor; December 16th, 2014 at 12:42 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 01:12 PM   #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but why did PKP order non-tilting Pendolino trains? Couldn't they have increased operating speeds if they'd opted for tilting trains or is there an issue why that's not possbile or practical (loading gauge limitations, for example)?
It would've been a PLN 200M extra investment per train for a maximum 15-minute saving on KRK-GDY or GDN-WRO. Not worth it. For the extra costs involved in getting tilting pendolinos PKP IC can buy three complete PESA DART sets, which is currently certified for 160 km/h, and in the future for 200 or even 250. Very reasonable move if you ask me, I'd rather see all Polish cities >200.000 inhabitants connected with good train service, than just five of them with excellent train service and no improvement for the rest.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #1087
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Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
It would've been a PLN 200M extra investment per train for a maximum 15-minute saving on KRK-GDY or GDN-WRO. Not worth it. For the extra costs involved in getting tilting pendolinos PKP IC can buy three complete PESA DART sets, which is currently certified for 160 km/h, and in the future for 200 or even 250. Very reasonable move if you ask me, I'd rather see all Polish cities >200.000 inhabitants connected with good train service, than just five of them with excellent train service and no improvement for the rest.
The interesting point is whether some other unit would have not been then better and cheaper. E.g. RailJet?
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Old December 16th, 2014, 07:15 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
The interesting point is whether some other unit would have not been then better and cheaper. E.g. RailJet?
Probably. As far as I know, PESA actually started developing the DART simply because there isn't that much good, cheap and versatile "low-" HSR material on the market. It's either like 300-330 km/h, ridiculously expensive sets by Siemens or Alstom, or equally expensive tilting pendolinos or X2000s with a relatively low top speed. The Danish and Dutch wanted something decent, capable of "moderate" high speed and they ended up contracting an Italian tram producer for that, which didn't end well. We got rather expensive non-tilting pendolinos. I think PESA made a really smart move "jumping" into the market for 200-250 km/h HSRs, as outside Germany and France, few countries can afford building the infrastructure for a 300-330 km/h network, and the ones that can, are so small that these speeds don't make sense.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
The interesting point is whether some other unit would have not been then better and cheaper. E.g. RailJet?
Price per unit for the Pendolino is 20m Euros compared to ~15m Euros the last option of Railjets cost ÖBB without locos. You ain't off that much cheaper.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #1090
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Price per unit for the Pendolino is 20m Euros compared to ~15m Euros the last option of Railjets cost ÖBB without locos. You ain't off that much cheaper.
They have similar capacity, but RailJet is more comfortable.

Pendolino: 402 passengers
RailJet: 408 passengers

Pendolino is lighter. Does it also have a smaller axel load?

Pendolino: 387 t
RailJet: 409 t

I am not competent enough to compare the maintenance and usage costs. Could you?

It won't be so easy to use those Pendolinos for international tracks. But I don't think that this was ever the plan though. And maybe Poland will have 250+ tracks within 10 years.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
They have similar capacity, but RailJet is more comfortable.

Pendolino: 402 passengers
RailJet: 408 passengers

Pendolino is lighter. Does it also have a smaller axel load?

Pendolino: 387 t
RailJet: 409 t

I am not competent enough to compare the maintenance and usage costs. Could you?

It won't be so easy to use those Pendolinos for international tracks. But I don't think that this was ever the plan though. And maybe Poland will have 250+ tracks within 10 years.
Well the locos for the RJ have to be rather heavy (88t) to bring all that power to the tracks. For that reason the RJ does quite some more damage to the them than comparable HS trains with distributed traction or power cars on both ends of the train. It is said that internally the RJ is also called track grinder. Can't say to whether this is true or not though.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Why embarrassing? It's not on a purpose built HS line. Significantly faster than driving and that's the most important point.
Actually, you're wrong. It took me like 2,5h from Gdansk to Warsaw (A1, A2). In my opinion, the key to success for PKP is 1,5h for 20-30euros from Gdansk to Warsaw. And I'm pretty sure many people would choose train instead of car.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #1093
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PKP Intercity couldnt buy Railjet because they didnt participate in the tender process. They didnt make any offers so its a moot point now.

Railjet can do max 230km/h which would be ideal since CMK will be upgraded to 230 km/h. Pendolino will actually achieve such speed by 2017/2018.

Still since Poland has at least two very capable manufacturers (PESA and Newag) my opinion is that PKP Intercity should be buying Polish products whenever possible. Of course they need to first call a tender and then Polish firms need to make good offers and win first.

I am really looking forward to PESA's DART line of trains. The 20 they will deliver next year is just the first type in their porfolio.
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Last edited by ufonut; December 16th, 2014 at 10:31 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
PKP Intercity couldnt buy Railjet because they didnt participate in the tender process. They didnt make any offers so its a moot point now.

Railjet can do max 230km/h which would be ideal since CMK will be upgrade to 230 km/h. Pendolino will actually achieve such speed by 2017/2018.

Still since Poland has at least two very capable manufacturers (PESA and Newag) my opinion is that PKP Intercity should be buying Polish products whenever possible. Of course they need to first call a tender and then Polish firms need to make good offers and win first.

I am really looking forward to PESA's DART line of trains. The 20 they will deliver next year is just the first type in their porfolio.
Hehe, I hope that Škoda will be in the tender as well, although I don't expect them to enter the HS EMUs.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #1095
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Railjet is not EMU, so couldn't enter the tender.
Also polish regulations put speed limitation on pushed trains.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #1096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balsen View Post
Railjet is not EMU, so couldn't enter the tender.
Also polish regulations put speed limitation on pushed trains.
Well, you are right about the EMU part, but Germany operates the push-pull ICE 2 at 280 km/h so there can't really be an argument regarding safety. Further the RJ is designed for speeds up to 250 km/h and not just the certified 230 km/h.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 12:36 AM   #1097
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Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Well, you are right about the EMU part, but Germany operates the push-pull ICE 2 at 280 km/h so there can't really be an argument regarding safety. Further the RJ is designed for speeds up to 250 km/h and not just the certified 230 km/h.
well, I'm not saying there's, it's just polish regulations.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #1098
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Originally Posted by thompsongda View Post
Actually, you're wrong. It took me like 2,5h from Gdansk to Warsaw (A1, A2).
That's 425 km. Route planners give a driving time of ~4 hrs for that (from city centre to city centre).
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:12 AM   #1099
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That's 425 km. Route planners give a driving time of ~4 hrs for that (from city centre to city centre).
That's not the point. Trip from Gdansk to Warsaw should take ~1,5h by train. And that would be optimal, and I bet every single train would be full. Also, it's from city centre to city centre, without any problems like @ airport, no traffic jams like when you're driving a car. Also costs are lower...
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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:57 PM   #1100
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Originally Posted by WB2010 View Post
1. Jastrzębie-Zdrój - 92.000 inhabitants
2. Lubin - 75.000 inhabitants
3. Siemianowice Śląskie - 70.000 inhabitants
4. Łomża - 63.000 inhabitants
5. Mielec - 61.000 inhabitants
6. Bełchatów - 60.000 inhabitants
7. Piekary Śląskie - 58.000 inhabitants.
Amstelveen (85,000 inhabitants) or Spijkennise (73,000) also don't have a railway service, but they're perfectly connected to respectively Amsterdam and Rotterdam by either bus, or tram, or even subway. And I think that's exactly the case for Jastrzebie and Siemanowice (and Piekary?) that are both part of the GOP. Also, I'm pretty sure Lubin has a railway station where regular train service was going to be restored? At least that's what Google Translate said.
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