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Old January 23rd, 2010, 04:49 PM   #141
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Reconstruction.
This line (CMK) was built in the 1970s with minimal curve radius of 4000m. So it's basically capable of 250 km/h operation. Just needs a good in-cab signalling system and total grade separation (for now, there are still some level crossings, viaducts need to be built).

The current plan is to put ERTMS on it and start 200 km/h operation.
So why are they going to upgrade it only on 200 km/h if it's capable for 250?

Are there allowed also freight trains and slow passenger trains or it's gonna be only for high speed trains?
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 05:08 PM   #142
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So why are they going to upgrade it only on 200 km/h if it's capable for 250?
Because 250 km/h would also require rebuilding traction from the present 3kV DC to 25kV AC. For that we would also need new locos. PKP-IC has ordered 10 Tauri (4 are already delivered), but it's not enough, and they are also meant to run BWE trains to Berlin.

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Are there allowed also freight trains and slow passenger trains or it's gonna be only for high speed trains?
Formally, there are no restrictions.
But as for freight trains - the access fee is higher on that route than on parallel routes via Piotrków and Radom-Kielce, so I suppose freight operators prefer those cheaper alternate routes.
There are a few passenger trains with Vmax=120 and 110 km/h, and currently they manage to fit them into the schedule. If the 200 km/h operation starts - I think they will be ruled out, because the locos and EMUs that run these trains don't have ERTMS installed.
The line has only one passenger stop (over 220 km length), so no really local trains are even possible.
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 05:47 PM   #143
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So Intercity will have have to purchase another EMUs as well in the future. Or another Siemens Taurus'es or Bombardier Traxx with 200 km/h option and carriages suited for such speed. There are also visions for other 200 km/h lines so new purchases will be essential in future.

Also some parts of Warszawa-Gdańsk will be suited for 200 km/h
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 08:28 PM   #144
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Because 250 km/h would also require rebuilding traction from the present 3kV DC to 25kV AC. For that we would also need new locos. PKP-IC has ordered 10 Tauri (4 are already delivered), but it's not enough, and they are also meant to run BWE trains to Berlin.
I didn't know that. On the other hand, rebuild it into 25kV AC would be good step in the long term. For regular operation at 200 km/h (250) you need new locos anyway, I think Poland doesn't have such fast locos (except already delivered Tauruses).
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 09:39 PM   #145
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Yeah, Before Taurus, our fastest loco was EP09 which could do 160 km/h. According to map included in Rail Masterplan 2030, in the long run,m in many, many years our High Speed Network is means to look more or less like that

'Y' Line connecting Warsaw, Łódź, Poznań and Wrocław, 300 km/h
CMK connecting Warsaw and Katowice with connector to Cracow, 300 km/h (200 and 300 for Cracow connector)
Warsaw-Gdańsk, 200 km/h
Wrocław-Poznań-Bydgoszcz-Gdańsk, 200 km/h
Warsaw-Białystok, 200 km/h
Poznań-Szczecin, 200 km/h
Wrocław-Katowice 200 km/h

Initially these 200 km/h lines will be modernised to 160 km/h first. But it's all plans. 'Y' construction between Warsaw and Łódź should start in 2014
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 09:40 PM   #146
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Map:
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Old January 23rd, 2010, 09:41 PM   #147
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Cool you posted it I just described it above
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Old January 24th, 2010, 12:07 AM   #148
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Radom - end of Świętokrzyskie voivodship and Skarzysko - Rzeszów upgraded to 160 km would be nice. There is also a painful gap in eastern Poland (Białystok - Łuków - Lublin - Stalowa Wola).
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Old January 24th, 2010, 12:42 AM   #149
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Impressive plans. You should definitely add also line Poznań - Berlin. Some ICE (maybe 4th generation) Berlin - Warszawa would be cool. What I miss at that map is improvement of connection between Slovakia and Poland via Bielsko-Biala - Zwardoń - Žilina which is after all TEN-T corridor Bratislava/Vienna - Gdańsk.
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Old January 24th, 2010, 02:14 AM   #150
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Well who knows, Siemens declared that they will offer Velaro PL which will be cheapest product in its class... I'm afraid it will be lower standard than other Velaros in Europe, But also Alstom New Pendolino and Bombardier Zefiro are possible. However, price as a decisive criteria in spec tells that New Pendolino is the most probable winner, but who knows maybe it will be different

And Poland will be first to run high speed service in our ex commie part of Europe. Well or second, Russia has it already I don't think any other country will open any high speed line by 2012
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Old January 24th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #151
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Quote:
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Well who knows, Siemens declared that they will offer Velaro PL which will be cheapest product in its class... I'm afraid it will be lower standard than other Velaros in Europe, But also Alstom New Pendolino and Bombardier Zefiro are possible. However, price as a decisive criteria in spec tells that New Pendolino is the most probable winner, but who knows maybe it will be different

And Poland will be first to run high speed service in our ex commie part of Europe. Well or second, Russia has it already I don't think any other country will open any high speed line by 2012
Yes, Poland will be probably the second ex-communist country where trains operate at 200 km/h. I know about plans for 200 km/h lines also in Slovakia and Czech Republic, but these won't be in operation in 2012.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #152
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Impressive plans. You should definitely add also line Poznań - Berlin. Some ICE (maybe 4th generation) Berlin - Warszawa would be cool.
would be cool, but no chance that anything is happening in Germany on that line. DeutscheBahn started upgrading the part Berlin - Frankfurt(Oder) (85km) to 160km/h in 1997(!) and aren't finished yet. Estimated finish date is currently 2013.
any further upgrade just isn't realistic ATM. Any HSR plans are pure science-fiction
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Old January 25th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #153
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would be cool, but no chance that anything is happening in Germany on that line. DeutscheBahn started upgrading the part Berlin - Frankfurt(Oder) (85km) to 160km/h in 1997(!) and aren't finished yet. Estimated finish date is currently 2013.
any further upgrade just isn't realistic ATM. Any HSR plans are pure science-fiction
Why it that? IMO HSR service Warszawa - Lódź - Poznań - Berlin could be pretty popular and it would be great competition for airlines.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #154
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Why it that? IMO HSR service Warszawa - Lódź - Poznań - Berlin could be pretty popular and it would be great competition for airlines.
DB is under massive critic for the last few weeks/months. In order to maximize profit a lot of necessary maintenance work on infrastructure and rolling stock has been skipped or delayed. With the result that there are lot of train defects, delays, etc in every day train traffic. A lot of ICE connections are currently served by normal IC trains because the ICE trains are in repair. Over Christmas every second connection between Berlin and Munich had been canceled because not enough trains were operational. In Berlin basically half of the SBahn trains are out of service since last summer. List could easily be continued ...
People are getting more and more upset that billions are invested in fancy, "nice-to-have", but not really necessary prestige objects like stuttgart 21 or the HSR line Nürnberg - Erfurt while the existing infrastructure gets worse and worse.
Even a lot of already long planned railway projects are in danger of getting canceled or delayed because of financial problems.
There are just much too many other problems right now than building HSR lines.

(but this is probably the wrong thread to discuss these problems )
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Old January 25th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #155
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Why it that? IMO HSR service Warszawa - Lódź - Poznań - Berlin could be pretty popular and it would be great competition for airlines.
So far we have Berlin-Warszawa Ekspres which on most of it's route in Poland goes 160 kph. When it will use 'Y' in 2020 or so it will get even quicker
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Old January 26th, 2010, 09:41 PM   #156
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That's new EMU from Newag for SKM in Tricity,
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Old January 26th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #157
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That's new EMU from Newag for SKM in Tricity,
It's EMU for SKM in Warsaw
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Old January 27th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #158
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Sorry lol always when I see SKM, I think immediately Gdańsk I thought it's WKD for Warsaw
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Old January 30th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateusz View Post
Well who knows, Siemens declared that they will offer Velaro PL which will be cheapest product in its class... I'm afraid it will be lower standard than other Velaros in Europe, But also Alstom New Pendolino and Bombardier Zefiro are possible. However, price as a decisive criteria in spec tells that New Pendolino is the most probable winner, but who knows maybe it will be different

And Poland will be first to run high speed service in our ex commie part of Europe. Well or second, Russia has it already I don't think any other country will open any high speed line by 2012
High speed service in what terms?
Multiple unit?
In Czech Rep. they have already long distance multiple units.
As far as I know high speed rail counts from 200 km/h on modernised lines, and from 250 km/h on new lines.
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Last edited by Petr; January 30th, 2010 at 12:29 AM.
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Old January 30th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #160
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High speed service in terms of speed. If everything goes well and also first EMUs should arrive in that time too
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