daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 15th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #1841
danielstan
Registered User
 
danielstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pitesti, RO // Helsinki Final Act 1975, Point 3) Inviolability of frontiers
Posts: 1,807
Likes (Received): 407

We can agree that the name of a language is a political issue, not necessarily the truth.

Me, as Romanian, I don't recognize the Moldovan language, while the Constitution of Moldova does.
We laugh in Romania when we hear translations from a Romanian - Moldovan dictionary printed in Chisinau, few years ago.

I heard that, after separation, in Croatian cinemas played ex-Yugoslav movies in Serbian language, but subtitled in Croatian. There was a drama movie and people were laughing about the translation.
If you open a latin Serbian web page in Google Chrome, it is detected as Croatian language and Chrome proposes you an automatic translation from Croatian to English.

In Slovakia, after separation, they played Czechoslovak movies (in Czech language) with Slovak subtitles. After a while they renounced.

On a first meeting between the presidents of Bulgaria and Macedonia, the Macedonian leader asked for an official translator, while the Bulgarian replied he doesn't need translation.

In USA the official language is English, even if the pronounciation, vocabulary and grammar are slightly different than in Great Britain.
In Switzerland an official language is German (written version), even if the SchwitzDeutsch they speak is highly different in pronounciation and slightly different in grammar than standard German.

Politics is madness.

Last edited by danielstan; April 15th, 2011 at 05:10 PM.
danielstan no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 15th, 2011, 05:20 PM   #1842
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
The main difference (the most common, but not as big) is in the pronunciation and writing of the preslavic letter/sound "jat", which is represented by a simbol "ě" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yat ). In standard croatian language, that sound is written as "ije" or "je", while in serbian it is "e". But it's not the question of spelling, but the differences between words in those 2 languages.

For example, the serbian word for beautiful is "lepo", while in croatian it's "lijepo". Milk: serbian "mleko", croatian "mlijeko" etc.

There are some differences in the vocabulary, where the languages have completely different words. There are about 30% different words, only serbian or croatian. For example carrot: in serbian "šargarepa", in croatian "mrkva", road in serbian "put" or "drum" while in croatian "cesta".

Other differences: phonetics, semantics, grammar...

Croatian language has passed intense standardization in the second half of the 18th century (influence of the literature) and during the "illiric period" during the 1830-1840. From that period, we can talk about modern croatian language, and that was the point where the two languages had split up and had their individual developing processes.

For conclusion, serbian and croatian languages are two different languages, which have common origin. They have separate ISO classifications (croatian: UDK 862, hr; serbian: UDK 861, sr), and they are internationally recognized. They are as similar as the norwegian and swedish are, or the english and irish.

quote for facts (but in croatian): http://groups.google.com/group/soc.c...e28f4080a5d9dc

I hope you understand the situation
Well you wrote such a long post for nothing. Because everything you wrote about Serbian language is not true.

First and the biggest mistake is about ekavina and ijekvian. Serbian is both ekavian and ijekvian.

The other thing is the vocabulary first of all you exaggerated this 30%,it is less than 1%, there have been some surveys and projects concerning this issue.
Mrkva is not only Croatian it is Serbian as well.

The point is that Croatian are really trying hard to prove that those two languages are different and are like Swedish or Norwegian what is 0% true. There is less difference between standard Croatian and standard Serbian than between German from Hamburg and from Bavaria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
As SFRJ was a federation, there were 4 official languages: Slovene, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian (in BIH and Montenegro croatian and serbian were spoken).
again not true. Official language was serbo-croatian or croatio-serbian.
How old are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vectom View Post
Nowdays languages Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, etc (more to come), are more or less political inventions to satisfy ethnic & religious pretentions of these minor european nations.
+1
this is the point
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #1843
zsimi80
Regisztrált felhasználó
 
zsimi80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hungary, Central Europe
Posts: 1,375
Likes (Received): 553

šargarepa it is a Hungarian word -> sárgarépa (sárga-yellow répa-beet) carrot. I havent known you use this word. Sorry for offtopic.
__________________






Last edited by zsimi80; April 15th, 2011 at 07:22 PM.
zsimi80 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #1844
Puležan
Registered User
 
Puležan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Zagreb (Pula)
Posts: 3,010
Likes (Received): 971

Quote:
Originally Posted by vectom View Post
the point is that SerboCroatian-CroatSerbian is a classic poly-centric language, that had during the time more than one area of its development (in all ethno and literal means).

One can find lot of linguistical literature upon this topic, but to assume some things and make it simplier:

70% of common and shared words is not really provable. For example, my origins are from the area where our speech (which is nowdays classified as Serbian) is totally non-understandable by 'standardized Serbian laguage' approach. Percentage of common words highly depends on the area, and SerboCroatian linguistic area has more than a dozen of sub-areas for unique idioms and words/expressions.
That's the whole point - we're talking about the polycentric language. And of course that the vocabulary and dialects depend on the area on which are spoken. Croatian and serbian both have "ekavica" and "ijekavica" speeches, but the "standard language" had chosen just one - serbian is "ekavski", while croatian is "ijekavski".

Quote:
Now I expect a bit of flaming, and ticketing that I'm a Serb so I have this theory, blahblah, so just to tell before that, I lived in both Serbia and Croatia and worked in both countries, and ethnically I'm officially Eskimo (since 2001), but this year I'm gonna choose Jedi ethnicity, so don't ticket me for a serb please, as I'm not.
Not from me. I completely agree with you. I like argueing with someone who knows the facts and who's not trying to tell you just his point of view. So

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Hafen View Post
Well you wrote such a long post for nothing. Because everything you wrote about Serbian language is not true.

First and the biggest mistake is about ekavina and ijekvian. Serbian is both ekavian and ijekvian.

The other thing is the vocabulary first of all you exaggerated this 30%,it is less than 1%, there have been some surveys and projects concerning this issue.
Mrkva is not only Croatian it is Serbian as well.
If you understood my words in some nationalistic point, that's not true, because my intention was not to say only my point of view, but to tell the most common differences between the 2 languages, using both my experience, knowledge and internet sources. The fact about the 30% of different words is not mine, so I put a link to the source.

We agree about the fact that our languages are very similar and that we should treat them as one polycentric language, as vectom said before. So don't hate me if said something wrong

Quote:
The point is that Croatian are really trying hard to prove that those two languages are different and are like Swedish or Norwegian what is 0% true. There is less difference between standard Croatian and standard Serbian than between German from Hamburg and from Bavaria.

Official language was serbo-croatian or croatio-serbian.
How old are you?
I know about croatian aspirations to have their (our) own language, totally different from serbian, and that process was most intense during the war. I hate that as much as I hate when someone is trying to present only his own "truth".

I'm 24, so I lived in SFRJ for only 4 years, but I know much about the history, the living in those times and about our cultures, so I may say that we are not different at all. But there are some politicians on both sides whose intention is to change history and to make theirselves "special". I live in Pula (Istra) so you cannot find any croatian nationalistic feelings in my behaviour or words

But we're now very much in OT, so I suggest to finish this debate before the mods delete our posts
Puležan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #1845
Majevčan
Српски Форум
 
Majevčan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,101
Likes (Received): 885

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
@Puležan,
OK, I have an opinion from a Croat. Already is what I suspected.
The same debate is between Romanian / 'Moldovan' or Bulgarian / Macedonian languages/dialects.

For the sake of discussion:
Norwegian and Swedish are mutually inteligible (also with Danish), but Irish (a keltic language) has nothing in common with English.
During comunism the official language of Yugoslavia was Serbo-Croatian, also internationally recognized.

I restate my question:
- for the 70% common Serbian and Croatian words, are there differences in spelling (how you write them)?
I know there are differences in pronounciation and in vocabulary.
THe difference is maybe up to 1-2% or sth. . I perfectly understand standard croatian.
__________________
Republika Srpska
Majevčan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #1846
Majevčan
Српски Форум
 
Majevčan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,101
Likes (Received): 885

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsimi80 View Post
šargarepa it is a Hungarian word -> sárgarépa (sárga-yellow répa-beet) carrot. I havent known you use this word. Sorry for offtopic.
We use paprika and gulas.... aswell
__________________
Republika Srpska
Majevčan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:28 PM   #1847
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18308

This discussion is very interesting. Although off-topic, I hope it will not be deleted, maybe moved somewhere else, where it can be continued?

I know when I was little, we had at home an Romanian-Serbocroat pocket dictionary.

A colleague of mine, a Serb ethnic from Banat, went to Craotia, but she didn't understand so much, it could be the fact, that she learned Serbian at home, not at school, and had only limited knowledge.

cinxxx está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #1848
nenea_hartia
Skeptic
 
nenea_hartia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Romania
Posts: 3,714
Likes (Received): 233

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I know when I was little, we had at home an Romanian-Serbocroat pocket dictionary.
I still have mine :



Quote:
Originally Posted by Majevčan View Post
We use paprika and gulas.... aswell
We too. And we also use pálinka (in RO: palincă/pălincă).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majevčan View Post
There are some differences in the vocabulary, where the languages have completely different words. There are about 30% different words, only serbian or croatian. For example carrot: in serbian "šargarepa", in croatian "mrkva", road in serbian "put" or "drum" while in croatian "cesta".
In Romania we use drum for road and morcov (pronounced as morkov) for carrot.
nenea_hartia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 08:08 PM   #1849
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Mrkva or Morkov is a Slav word and in Romanian language there are lot of Slav words.
And i doubt that paprika is Hungarian word because paprika is in lot of languages German,English etc. And Goulash is a meal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Croatian and serbian both have "ekavica" and "ijekavica" speeches, but the "standard language" had chosen just one - serbian is "ekavski", while croatian is "ijekavski".
again not true for Serbian! Don' be persistent Serbian standard is both ekavian and jekavian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
The fact about the 30% of different words is not mine, so I put a link to the source.
Again not true. Some 1% of the words are exclusively either Serbian or Croatian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
I'm 24, so I lived in SFRJ for only 4 years, but I know much about the history, the living in those times and about our cultures, so I may say that we are not different at all. But there are some politicians on both sides whose intention is to change history and to make theirselves "special". I live in Pula (Istra) so you cannot find any croatian nationalistic feelings in my behaviour or words
Well you don't now much about the history because the language was SH or HS. I've lived that "history".
I am not even trying to put anything nationalistic, I am just stating that you don't have enough information of Serbian language to be making statements like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
A colleague of mine, a Serb ethnic from Banat, went to Craotia, but she didn't understand so much, it could be the fact, that she learned Serbian at home, not at school, and had only limited knowledge.

I think that the colleugeus of your don't know the language at all. So that is the problem and not the fact that croatian and serbian are different.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #1850
danielstan
Registered User
 
danielstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pitesti, RO // Helsinki Final Act 1975, Point 3) Inviolability of frontiers
Posts: 1,807
Likes (Received): 407

'drum' is coming from Greek 'dromos' which gave in many languages 'aerodrom', 'hipodrom' etc.

This debate went to what I expected:
Croatians consider 2 different, but related languages: Serbian and Croatian.
Serbs consider 1 single language Serbo-Croatian with many dialects in Serbia, Croatia and other ex-YU countries.

Thanks to everybody.

And don't hate each other, as this is about perception and wishful thinking, which is part of the human nature.

Last edited by danielstan; April 15th, 2011 at 08:22 PM.
danielstan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #1851
Palance
Autosnelwegen.net
 
Palance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palancedrecht, NL
Posts: 1,073
Likes (Received): 277

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
In USA the official language is English, even if the pronounciation, vocabulary and grammar are slightly different than in Great Britain.
When people ask me (I am half-Bosnian (Croat ) and half-Dutch) how the difference in language is between Croatian and Serbian, I always refer to American English and British English: No problems with understanding each other at all, some different words and some minor differences in words (color-colour and e.g. bijelo-belo).

That is in my opinion the easiest way to explain the differences.
__________________
http://www.autosnelwegen.net/
Palance no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #1852
nenea_hartia
Skeptic
 
nenea_hartia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Romania
Posts: 3,714
Likes (Received): 233

Useful and interesting debate, thank you all for this little piece of offtopic.
nenea_hartia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #1853
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,472
Likes (Received): 3445

@Bad Hafen: the number of ijekavian Serbs is probably less than number of words that Croatian and Serbian languages have in common.
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:10 PM   #1854
EUSERB
Anti-EU
 
EUSERB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Subotica,Serbia
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 2523

People,you wasted 1.5 page on off topic-ing...
EUSERB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:12 PM   #1855
CrazySerb
Vuk sa Ontarija
 
CrazySerb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 19,761
Likes (Received): 7704

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
@Bad Hafen: the number of ijekavian Serbs is probably less than number of words that Croatian and Serbian languages have in common.
Well, there's as many of them as there are Croatians.
CrazySerb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:15 PM   #1856
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,472
Likes (Received): 3445

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySerb View Post
Well, there's as many of them as there are Croatians.
i don't understand what are you trying to say
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:16 PM   #1857
gogu.ca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 604
Likes (Received): 292

WOW........where is the pictures.....to undestand this problems who-who....TITO said *I am the leader of ONE country which has TWO alphabets,THREE languages, FOUR religios,FIVE natinalities,SIX republics,surounded by SEVEN neighbors, a country in whics live EIGHT ethnic minorities* ....................lets back on topic..
__________________
Each people has as much haven over its head as it has hell under its feet
gogu.ca no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #1858
Zagor666
Motomaniac
 
Zagor666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Rumenka - Köln
Posts: 826
Likes (Received): 349

8 ethnic minorities?maybe 80 - in my street live 8
just from one street corner to the other in my street live:
hungarian(exc.slovak minority from hungary) - croat - slovak - empty ground - serbian - montenegrinian - romanian - croatian - slovak - serbian - serbian - empty ground
Zagor666 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:25 PM   #1859
CrazySerb
Vuk sa Ontarija
 
CrazySerb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 19,761
Likes (Received): 7704

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
i don't understand what are you trying to say
There's a couple of million of "ijekavian Serbs" so one cannot say something like this ...

Quote:
Croatian and serbian both have "ekavica" and "ijekavica" speeches, but the "standard language" had chosen just one - serbian is "ekavski", while croatian is "ijekavski".
CrazySerb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #1860
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
@Bad Hafen: the number of ijekavian Serbs is probably less than number of words that Croatian and Serbian languages have in common.
Well there are at least 3 million of ijekavian Serbs not less than ijekavian Croats.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
путеви, motorways, putevi, serbia, srbija

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium