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Old October 23rd, 2015, 06:12 PM   #341
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Video on Melbourne Metro project:

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Old October 24th, 2015, 06:09 PM   #342
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Video on Melbourne Metro project:
This is exciting news; I'm glad for Australia that they're moving forward with upgrading their rail transit. Melbourne and Sydney are definitely thinking about the future.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #343
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Old October 28th, 2015, 05:03 AM   #344
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Hey gang, does anyone know if Melbourne metro has any plans to making a dedicated and segregated city line, in the future with this project? Its a real shame that only Sydney will have a true rapid transit line by 2019, while Melbourne will have a new but seemingly crippled service that ties into the existing rail infrastructure from Footscray and beyond.

Sydney will have completed stage 1 of its Northwest Sydney Rapid Transit line, and stage 2 to be completed by 2024, forming the first rapid transit rail line in Australia and spurring a massive development boom along the rapid transit rail corridor for years to come.

Below is a comparison between the 2 massive city public transport projects. I wonder if anyone can shed any light as to why the costings are so similar yet the deliverables are so disparate in terms of service and bang for buck so to speak.

Cheers.

Sydney total price tag $8.3 billion (Stage 1).
Length: 36km (Stage 1 and Stage 2 total track length of 66km).
Completion date: 2019 (Stage 2 completion date: 2024).
Type: Rapid Transit Metro.







Melbourne total price tag $11 billion.
Length: 9km
Completion date: 2026.
Type: Suburban Heavy Rail.



http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/mo...20-gkdcfu.html

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Old October 28th, 2015, 05:27 AM   #345
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Melbourne is mainly a tunneling project , where Sydney is a mix of tunneling and above ground running...
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Old October 28th, 2015, 06:46 AM   #346
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The 2 projects do vary greatly in terms of their overall brief, but both face their own challenges.

Melbourne Metro has to face some significant tunneling challenges in its construction, given the mixture of ground that it needs to be built through.

The Melbourne system is largely a capacity building project for the existing network, with the addition of a few inner city stations as a good value add. It will facilitate the potential for more network growth in future years to areas such as Rowville, Melton and Melbourne Airport, but the other good thing is that it will be built with the design of longer trains in its design.

The biggest questions remaining are:

1/ How can it be paid for?
2/ Will South Yarra get a station connection as part of this project?
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Old October 28th, 2015, 02:36 PM   #347
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Actually Stage 1 of the Sydney Rapid Transit line will consist of 15km worth of tunneling which is 6km more than Melbourne's tunneling project, but almost $2 billion less of a price tag. Despite Melbourne's rail project still being a slower commuter railway line with presumed less ambitious frequency to Sydney's no timetables-a-train-every-4-minutes strategy.

What I really want to also know aside from the comparative costing analysis is, will Melbourne's underground line be scalable into the future, with the capacity to convert into a rapid transit metro line if upgraded and segregated on its own track. Ideally one would want to see this underground line left segregated and linked to Melbourne airport one day.


Taken from the "Delivering the North West Rail Link" pdf
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Old October 28th, 2015, 03:04 PM   #348
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I honestly don't know why such tags as "metro" and "suburban commuter" are thrown around willy-nilly. If anything, the Japanese examples of "commuter rail" and "metro" kinda throw these stereotypes about the two transit types out the window. The most frequent lines in Japan are actually some commuter lines, not the metro lines.

Equally, the freeing up of capacity by the Melbourne tunnel should allow for an "unbundling" of the network, and an increase in overall frequency across the network, making the distinction between "rapid transit metro" and "suburban heavy rail" moot. A TUAG frequency is often considered to be 6tph. Even Stockholm, which has a proper metro system, runs at these frequencies. If Melbourne, after freeing up capacity, begins to run at these frequencies off-peak, then the tunnel has done its work.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I honestly don't know why such tags as "metro" and "suburban commuter" are thrown around willy-nilly. If anything, the Japanese examples of "commuter rail" and "metro" kinda throw these stereotypes about the two transit types out the window. The most frequent lines in Japan are actually some commuter lines, not the metro lines.

Equally, the freeing up of capacity by the Melbourne tunnel should allow for an "unbundling" of the network, and an increase in overall frequency across the network, making the distinction between "rapid transit metro" and "suburban heavy rail" moot. A TUAG frequency is often considered to be 6tph. Even Stockholm, which has a proper metro system, runs at these frequencies. If Melbourne, after freeing up capacity, begins to run at these frequencies off-peak, then the tunnel has done its work.
There is a clear and unambiguous distinction between a low frequency suburban heavy rail line and a high capacity high frequency metro line with the very latest auto-signalling that is driverless and runs on a segregated line with no timtable. Unshared segregated rapid transit metro lines are the staple of large metropolises around Asia and Europe. Now if Melbourne metro is able to deliver a train every 4 minutes and make the journey in almost half the time like the Sydney northwest metro line is planned to have. Then that is definitely worth taking notice of.

I do hope one day as Melbourne increases in population that the new line can be easily ungraded and segregated for a seamless commute and faster turnaround times. For now I presume the trip might be metro style up until Footscray but not beyond that point. However until there is a concerted effort to further untangle the Melbourne lines, I fear the trains will remain joined at the hip and prone to delays if any of the trains sharing those lines experiences a breakdown. Sydney also experiences those woes, hence the massive investment and rail infrastructure shakeup of late.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 10:11 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusCicero View Post
There is a clear and unambiguous distinction between a low frequency suburban heavy rail line and a high capacity high frequency metro line with the very latest auto-signalling that is driverless and runs on a segregated line with no timtable.
The way you phrase it there is. But there is NOT a difference between a suburban heavy rail line and a metro line in the way you think. I gave you an example in Japan. Not all lines there are segregated, but the frequencies are phenomenal. The Chuo Rapid Line to Kichijoji in Tokyo for example has 21 tph in peak - so that's a train every 2 mins 50 secs approximately (link here). Or you have the even more frequent Keio line that runs 26 tph (see here). By contrast, the Tokyo metro often runs less frequent trains (Yurakucho line for example runs 16tph link here). So, you see, commuter and metro? Really so clear cut?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusCicero View Post
Unshared segregated rapid transit metro lines are the staple of large metropolises around Asia and Europe. Now if Melbourne metro is able to deliver a train every 4 minutes and make the journey in almost half the time like the Sydney northwest metro line is planned to have. Then that is definitely worth taking notice of.
No, they are not. The Tokyo Metro and TOEI subway only account for 22% of all rail transport in Tokyo. The rest is ALL commuter rail - frequent, fast, interlined, commuter rail running different service patterns. 40 million riders per day on average in fact (with 8.66 million for the metro systems). This is also repeated in the other big cities there with commuter rail having a significant share of the rail transport compared to metros/subways.

Stockholm and Munich - proper, metro systems. But guess what? Interlined trains - so two "lines" using the same track. 12tph per branch at peak hour in both systems, giving a frequency of 24tph for joint sections (or even higher for the Stockholm green lines). So they're not fully separated lines. Additionally, off peak you get only 6tph - so lower than your "TRAIN EVERY 4 MINS OMGZZZZ".

Chicago - the "El", not fully separated, still has level crossings. Is a subway system.

Tokyo - allows through running of commuter trains through the metro system. Gives the system whereby you have Seibu Ikebukuro line (commuter rail) running through the Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin line (metro line), which then runs along the Tokyu Toyoko line (commuter rail) and then interlines through to the Minatomirai line (subway) in Yokohama. This means you can ride on the same train all the way from Yokohama to Saitama, but it also means that the "metro" is not segregated from commuter rail.

In fact, I could go on and on about examples from around the world, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusCicero View Post
I do hope one day as Melbourne increases in population that the new line can be easily ungraded and segregated for a seamless commute and faster turnaround times. For now I presume the trip might be metro style up until Footscray but not beyond that point. However until there is a concerted effort to further untangle the Melbourne lines, I fear the trains will remain joined at the hip and prone to delays if any of the trains sharing those lines experiences a breakdown. Sydney also experiences those woes, hence the massive investment and rail infrastructure shakeup of late.
It's not a particular type or mode that matters, it's all about making that mode work best of all. By untangling the network in Melbourne and making sure that (as far as possible) all lines run through the centre without too much bundling together, they'll be able to run more frequent trains. That will be sufficient for Melbourne.

I cannot help but feel this "competition" here is nothing more than a Sydney vs. Melbourne contest, and that's not helpful to be honest. You want one of those - stick to Ozscrapers.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 10:49 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusCicero View Post
Hey gang, does anyone know if Melbourne metro has any plans to making a dedicated and segregated city line, in the future with this project?
This video explains it rather well. The idea is to be able to increase other lines to 'metro style' frequencies. The same idea applies with Sydney Metro, once the second harbour crossing opens, capacity constraints will be lifted and we'll be seeing consistently higher frequencies on most lines.

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Old October 29th, 2015, 02:29 AM   #352
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Japan is an extreme exception and outlier. In the vast majority of cities and countries there is a difference, with some simply being a clearer and more extreme difference than in others. Australia is also somewhat of an exception in the sense that it has developed its suburban network to high standards rather than invest in a separate system. But like I've said before, just because transgendered people exist, along with femme men and butch women, doesn't mean that genders don't exist for anyone and we should simply forget about the concept. There are exceptions to almost every generality.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 02:47 AM   #353
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Quote:
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Japan is an extreme exception and outlier. In the vast majority of cities and countries there is a difference, with some simply being a clearer and more extreme difference than in others. Australia is also somewhat of an exception in the sense that it has developed its suburban network to high standards rather than invest in a separate system. But like I've said before, just because transgendered people exist, along with femme men and butch women, doesn't mean that genders don't exist for anyone and we should simply forget about the concept. There are exceptions to almost every generality.
Is it such an extreme outlier? Like I showed, there are lots of other examples of blurring the lines between commuter and subway networks. In Berlin, their S-bahn runs more like a metro than the Stockholm tunnelbana in many ways. It's more frequent for large portions of the network even! Equally for the Hamburg S-bahn, there is actually little difference between it and their U-bahn network in the city.

Australian networks have been often described as "hybrid" systems - they straddle the line between what is traditionally considered to be a commuter rail system and a metro system. Melbourne and Sydney boast metro-like frequencies at a number of points on their networks and yes, they also boast some features that would normally disqualify them from being a metro such as level crossings, multiple lines sharing a track etc.

But then I have also shown that traditional metro systems (Munich and Stockholm) have shared sections for different lines, and Chicago has level crossings on their subway system at points. So clearly even in what are traditionally regarded as metro systems, there are factors that would disqualify them from being a metro! This is why I say it just doesn't matter what it is called, and the post above was a point scoring exercise for Sydney over Melbourne, and I don't see the point of that as both projects are trying to do different things.

No, this is why I said at the bottom of my post - what matters is not what it is called and whether it is a "metro" or whether it is commuter rail, what matters is the function that it performs. The Melbourne system is being untangled by this project to allow more frequent services and hopefully allow turn-up-and-go frequencies, which are largely regarded to be the 6tph mark (according to surveys on how long people are willing to wait for services). Sydney is going another route by creating a separate system to the Cityrail system. It's a different approach, nothing more. It's also a new line into the suburbs, whereas the Melbourne project is a new tunnel to relieve capacity constraints on the network.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #354
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Several S-Bahn systems are considered full metro systems in places like encyclopaedia articles and therefore are not considered any form of exception. And Metro systems that have level crossings like Chicago's L are indeed very rare. And ones that have level crossings on fairly busy streets are even more rare.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 11:43 AM   #355
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Quote:
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Several S-Bahn systems are considered full metro systems in places like encyclopaedia articles and therefore are not considered any form of exception. And Metro systems that have level crossings like Chicago's L are indeed very rare. And ones that have level crossings on fairly busy streets are even more rare.
Right, so something that is called commuter rail is also a metro (as S-bahn systems are a form of commuter rail). And all the other problems with a strict definition about what a "metro" is that I brought up are just exceptions. So everything is an exception as a rule... Honestly, do you not see how silly it is to try to package everything into some arbitrary box?

As I have said repeatedly, it doesn't matter per se what it is called. The term "commuter rail" or "suburban rail" was used in a derogatory sense compared to the much vaunted "rapid transit metro" which was given special status over the page and that is what I took umbridge to (as well as the lack of understanding about the exceptions around the world). This is ridiculous to me. What matters is the job that the system does and how well it does it. The Melbourne system will ramp up frequencies, will serve a large amount of the metropolitan area by rail, will become more reliable by giving additional capacity etc etc. This means that it'll do its job better, no matter what you call it. To argue about definitions just takes away from the improvements being made and becomes nothing more than a silly argument about semantics.

I'll just call it the magical mystical choo choo. I think this is an excellent box to package it in.
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Old October 29th, 2015, 10:02 PM   #356
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I don't think that people should use the official definitions as an excuse to not recognise the difference between systems in a given category, but I also don't think people should use the systems that act as exceptions as an excuse not to accept the usage of categories. The different categories aren't precise enough to tell a person all she needs to know about a system, and people need to recognise that. But the use of categories do normally give some useful information about different systems even if they can't tell the whole story. There is a place both brevity and concision, as well as for greater elaboration. I realise not everyone is going to agree, but that is my stance.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 06:54 AM   #357
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I guess my bias is that I have seen how wonderfully implemented segregated rapid transit lines operate in China and many of its tier 1 cities (Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing) that I visit frequently when not in Australia. There seems to be a robust convention that has arisen due to Chinese cities moving towards the most efficient configuration possible. China is very drastic and almost autistic I guess you would say in its approach in this. They would rather demolish an inefficient model than bandaid the problem until its unrecognizable.

Similarly Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore use this convention of segregated rapid transit lines vs the other hybrid systems. So I recognize the merits of Sydney and Melbourne choosing such a system to break the ailing and overburdened system it uses today.
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Old October 30th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #358
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Night Network



From 1 January 2016, Melbourne's Night Network will get you where you need to be. The Night Network trial includes all night public transport on weekends, with all night trains and trams, late night buses, and a 2am coach service to key regional centres.

The trial network has been designed to provide over 70 per cent of Melbournians with an all night train, tram or bus within one kilometre of their home, so that there is the best chance possible to properly assess the success of all night transport on weekends.

Night Trains will run hourly all night on weekends on all lines, except Stony Point and Flemington Racecourse lines.

Many stations will benefit from more frequent train services through the night, where they are serviced by two or more train lines. For example, key stations such as Footscray, Caulfield, Clifton Hill and Burnley, and several others, will have two trains an hour.

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/getting-around/night-network/
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Old November 6th, 2015, 04:54 PM   #359
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Old November 13th, 2015, 04:27 PM   #360
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From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...-contract.html

Three shortlisted for Melbourne’s High Capacity Metro Trains contract
13 Nov 2015



AUSTRALIA: Three consortia have been shortlisted for the High Capacity Metro Trains public-private partnership contract to supply and maintain 37 electric multiple-units for Melbourne suburban services, Victoria’s Minister for Public Transport & Employment Jacinta Allan announced on November 9.

The shortlisted bidders are:
  • Bombardier (Bombardier Transportation Australia, Macquarie Bank, ITOCHU and Infrared Capital Partners);
  • Eureka Rail (Alstom, the Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ and John Laing);
  • Evolution Rail (Downer EDI, Changchun Railway Vehicles and Plenary)
...
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