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Old July 2nd, 2007, 05:00 PM   #41
gappa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
Since they claim patronage has risen by 10 % in each of the last two years, Connex must have some figures ...

From The Education Age , 26 th February 2007

Connex's figures show passengers made 157 million trips on Melbourne trains last year. That figure is expected to increase with the abolition of zone 3 and there are concerns about the system's ability to cope with the extra demand.


I wouldn't be surprised if what is being measured is the no. of passengers passing through the barriers at the inner city stations: it's wouldn't be difficult to take a free trip between unmanned stations (but costly if you get caught).
Wow, thanks Yardmaster, that's actually higher than I thought it'd be. Surely when the government sees figures like this they'd invest more in PT infrastructure? But sadly no, and this is from Labor, we're royaly screwed by our governments on PT.

Let's build another bloody eight million lane freeway between Joe Blogs' McMansion and his favourite take away! Oh and provide a bus service that runs once an hour until eight at night. Victoria the place to be screwed by your government!
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 05:13 PM   #42
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Labor or Liberal they're both devils in disguise, its just Labor seems to be the lesser of the two and are willing to spend that little bit more than the Libs.

The freeways that are built are mostly federally funded and/or private. Sure they have state funding but they're not the total contributors.

Given the way the Melbourne system is so archaic, it will take more than an instant fix to make sure everyone is happy. At least Labor have spent money in renewing infrastructure. So many points of our network was falling into disrepair and the backlog is slowly clearing.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 07:18 PM   #43
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Wow, thanks Yardmaster, that's actually higher than I thought it'd be. Surely when the government sees figures like this they'd invest more in PT infrastructure? But sadly no, and this is from Labor, we're royaly screwed by our governments on PT.
One issue that will eventually emerge into the public domain is that public transport is kinda too popular at the moment.

I'd guess this is a result of several factors ... rising petrol prices, upgrading of regional services, a deliberate lowering of regional fares (especially off-peak, to attract patronage (except on the Foster Line)), abolition of zone 3, and, perhaps, the influx of immigrants into our major cities (75% of the population increase in Sydney, I heard tonight ... probably similar in Melbourne), which, coupled with rocketing real-estate values, means, if you want to buy a house, you don't buy a car.

b.t.w. ... my personal take on this ... like Gappa I live two lives. I can wander down to the local station, get on the train at 9:08, get off the V/Line bus three and a bit hours later and then struggle over the mountains for an hour ... but it's still far cheaper and healthier than driving there!

I don't drive a car ... and I often do body-counts on the train/bus. When there was just you and the driver, well that was neat (I know a lot of them by name), but not a good sign for the future. Today, it's different.

Part of the problem is the Federal Government has gotten on top of collecting all the revenue (the states handed over all their taxation powers) ... whereas the State Governments provide the services. It's allright if they work together, but at the moment they don't.

Last edited by Yardmaster; July 2nd, 2007 at 07:59 PM.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 07:38 PM   #44
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Connex's figures show passengers made 157 million trips on Melbourne trains last year. That figure is expected to increase with the abolition of zone 3 and there are concerns about the system's ability to cope with the extra demand.
Thanks
but...only 157 million it is less than I expected.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 08:06 PM   #45
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Thanks
but...only 157 million it is less than I expected.
You have to also consider the tram system ... and the ratio of adults to cars here.

Very large sprawling city here minato ku ... there are adolescents fifteen years old here who have never been to the city. And some that have never taken a train.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 04:50 PM   #46
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Melbourne's rail system dates from 1854 when the first train line in Australia was opened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...outh_Australia

I thought South Australia had the first public rail line (Goolwa to Pt Elliot)
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 08:02 PM   #47
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Yeah, but you guys used horses for motive power, and it wasn't until 1856 when a mechanical railway was constructed.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 04:11 AM   #48
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Yes you're right JAKJ. I didn't count it because it was horse drawn but I probably should have. Melbourne to Sandringham was the first steam train service. Amazing considering Melbourne was only 20 years old at the time.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 09:20 AM   #49
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Melbourne to Sandridge (now known as Port Melbourne).
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Old July 4th, 2007, 12:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
One issue that will eventually emerge into the public domain is that public transport is kinda too popular at the moment.

I'd guess this is a result of several factors ... rising petrol prices, upgrading of regional services, a deliberate lowering of regional fares (especially off-peak, to attract patronage (except on the Foster Line)), abolition of zone 3, and, perhaps, the influx of immigrants into our major cities (75% of the population increase in Sydney, I heard tonight ... probably similar in Melbourne), which, coupled with rocketing real-estate values, means, if you want to buy a house, you don't buy a car.
how is melbourne going to respond to the plateau that you are describing? I see from the photos that larger, low floor trams are going to be used more and more. What about more ROW, limited stops, or faster tram service that is more in line with LRT/metro than trams service? (they call it LRT in North America...would you call it "rapid tram" service Down Under?)

It's quite interesting that Melbourne has so many successful railway lines and tram lines but nothing like a metro...showing that it may not be 100% necessary for a successful public transport. Glad that Toronto is starting to realize this.

Cheers, m
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Old July 4th, 2007, 12:37 PM   #51
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A dedicated ROW is very hard on all but the routes that already have one, because most of the network predates the advent of the automobile. Parts of routes 96 and 109 are simply called "light rail" (although everyone calls them trams) because they run on former heavy rail lines.

Adding limited stops tram services would be very difficult, considering most tram routes operate at a frequency of ten minutes, with busier ones every five, and you get bundled lines which increase frequency up to 60 per hour on a single street. The same thing happens on the heavy rail network, except for the two lines which do have an express track.

It's also worth mentioning that while many tram routes are very long, there is usually little need to travel long sections of most routes because they will usually pass a railway station at some point, where most passengers would be expected to get on a train.

More radical tram ideas include altering the St Kilda Rd/Swanston St routes (the busiest part of the network) to operate a shuttle between the Melbourne University terminus and St Kilda Junction, because there is really no need to route every single tram down the road. It'd be more inconvenient for passengers though.

Transport isn't that bad without a metro here because all the railway lines converge and provide a frequent service at inner locations and the trams, while slow, provide good coverage in the inner suburbs as well. And the buses, they're slowly improving after being stuck in the 70s (when everyone worked 9-5 and the shops closed at noon on Saturdays and there was no Sunday trading). That said, a metro would take a lot of stress off the existing network.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 05:47 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by allurban View Post
how is melbourne going to respond to the plateau that you are describing? I see from the photos that larger, low floor trams are going to be used more and more. What about more ROW, limited stops, or faster tram service that is more in line with LRT/metro than trams service? (they call it LRT in North America...would you call it "rapid tram" service Down Under?)

It's quite interesting that Melbourne has so many successful railway lines and tram lines but nothing like a metro...showing that it may not be 100% necessary for a successful public transport. Glad that Toronto is starting to realize this.

Cheers, m
Here's a projection from a State Government transport survey published in 1980:



I've added the red & blue lines myself(even the Government couldn't afford coloured ink in those days ).

The blue lines represent the mid-point of projected demand for public transport usage: elsewhere in the report it was stated that at best, we could arrest the decline in patronage. It was also recommended that we replace as many tram services by bus as soon as possible. It was also noted that most of the country rail fleet was more than fifty years old: and should also be replaced by privately-operated bus services. ("Final Report, Victorian Transport study", 1980, Ordered by the Legislative Assembly).

Shortly afterwards, the Government was replaced ... and so were most of those 50-year old railway carriages, which can only be seen on "vintage" trains these days. The red lines I've drawn on the graph indicate (roughly) the actual growth in tram and train traffic.

I'd suggest this results from a number of factors:
  • a deliberate policy on the part of the new government to curtail urban sprawl and facilitate "medium density" housing
  • demographic change: both through immigration & from technological and other factors: which makes a "flat" or 'apartment" more attractive for lots of people than a lot of lawn to mow at the weekend
  • rising petrol prices
  • increasing environmental awareness
  • deliberate government policies to make public transport cheaper and more usable

It's worked! How do you deal with too many passengers? Improve the infrastructure: which costs money.

Two propositions:
  • Raise fares (not very popular, and in the past repreatedly demonstrated that it drove patronage away: most Australians do have an alternative: their car)
  • Get more money from the Federal Government (who now pretty much collect all the taxes)

Last edited by Yardmaster; July 5th, 2007 at 12:46 AM.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:46 AM   #53
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Quote:
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It's quite interesting that Melbourne has so many successful railway lines and tram lines but nothing like a metro...showing that it may not be 100% necessary for a successful public transport. Glad that Toronto is starting to realize this.
Yeah but don't tell the Victorian Government, I'd love a metro! I guess the system we have now works fairly well but as previously stated is not as efficent as a metro. Of course we have a very extensive tram network which takes the place of a metro to a certain extent - although it's starting to get clogged by traffic. I hope the next state budget includes 17.5 billion dollars for PT like the last Ontario budget did, and we can really start fixing up the PT system!
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Old July 5th, 2007, 09:59 AM   #54
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very interesting stuff...Ive heard so much about Melbourne and since Ive been in KL, Ive wanted to visit.

Another question...what about travel between suburbs? What is that like for you? Are there any circle lines aside from the trams?

I ask this because Toronto's transit is facing many new challenges (aside from the 10+ year gap in investment in infrastructure). The rail lines and metro are mostly radial...but travel is now shifting from downtown to suburban areas, in multiple directions....

One reason for this big investment (and more importantly, Toronto's Transit City proposal) is to build up the rail infrastructure to allow more trips in all directions at all times of day.

Cheers, m
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Old July 5th, 2007, 10:03 AM   #55
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very interesting stuff...Ive heard so much about Melbourne and since Ive been in KL, Ive wanted to visit.

Another question...what about travel between suburbs? What is that like for you? Are there any circle lines aside from the trams?

I ask this because Toronto's transit is facing many new challenges (aside from the 10+ year gap in investment in infrastructure). The rail lines and metro are mostly radial...but travel is now shifting from downtown to suburban areas, in multiple directions....

One reason for this big investment (and more importantly, Toronto's Transit City proposal) is to build up the rail infrastructure to allow more trips in all directions at all times of day.

Cheers, m
The train system is radial, with no circle lines. You have to go all the way into the city or almost to change lines. There used to be a circle line but most of it was pulled up a long time ago.

Here's the system map:



The short section of the Alamein line between Alamein and Camberwell is all that remains of the old circle line.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 10:17 AM   #56
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^ How many stations in total? Seems like it has way more than Sydney if you don't count the interurban lines.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:48 AM   #57
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^ How many stations in total? Seems like it has way more than Sydney if you don't count the interurban lines.
Just over 200. I can't quite remember but I think it's either 204 or 209.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:28 PM   #58
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The train system is radial, with no circle lines. You have to go all the way into the city or almost to change lines. There used to be a circle line but most of it was pulled up a long time ago.
The loss of the outer circle line was a shame. It was built just in time for the 1890 depression and what were then to be the new outer suburbs of Melbourne just never got built.

Anyway, there's an easier alternative: buses. When the SmartBus program is completed, there will be a series of connected, high-frequency orbital bus routes which serve to connect the various railway lines. Existing routes can do the same job but SmartBus is at least a good marketing strategy because it promotes a new identity (the view goes from "many bus routes are shit, buses suck" to "look, a Smartbus, the services on those routes are pretty good")



The purple route has since been constructed and services on it started last October.
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Old July 6th, 2007, 03:58 AM   #59
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True, buses are really the only viable alternative in the near future, or maybe the occasional light rail/tram route. Maybe by the time I'm fifty Melbourne will be dense enough to support a new radial heavy rail line. Here's hoping.
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Old July 6th, 2007, 10:36 AM   #60
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another interesting parallel with Toronto....

Hmmm...here GO Transit (regional commuter rail + bus service) is operating on 7 radial bus/rail commuter lines and there is also east-west (semicircle) bus service on two routes (following major expressways)....

They have also proposed a bus-only roadway running along an elecricity corridor east-west....

original proposal was a high-tech rail line (GO ALRTS and GO Urban) about 30 years ago...still nothing....

Fortunately there are still cross-town railway lines...but in private hands...

Im also hoping to see a cross-town rail line in Toronto one day....

Cheers, Moaz
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