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Old June 12th, 2015, 05:49 AM   #3321
Kanadzie
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My understanding of the "hybrid" option was that essentially no changes to the Gardiner, but re-alignment of Lake Shore Boulevard East to pass north of it to get rid of the jog.

(edit, OK I see it better now. Move the road a few feet to the south to put condo towers between it and the train tracks. Is this really useful ?)

The study proposed that considered the hybrid as the most expensive was pretty screwy, as the "remove" option had the highest capital expense (presumably to destroy the elevated structure)

It's mentioned a bit more in detail here : http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...00m-in-savings

I really hate the anti-car politicking though, with all this "Champs-Elysées" talk... if they got rid of the highway and put a boulevard, it would look like Lake Shore Boulevard E near Leslie, to which it would immediately connect to and be part of, in other words, a crappy road through a dump wasteland (though admittedly, eventually, a crappy congested road through a forest of condos) Champs-Elysees, really ?

I have to admit I am reasonably pleased with Mr Tory in his role here. He is just totally normal, a normal mayor of a big city, with normal ideas and normal life, it is so strange to observe but wonderful
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Old June 12th, 2015, 06:18 AM   #3322
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^ Agree. My torrid love affair with John Tory continues.

I think people are looking at the boulevard with rose coloured glasses. I think it'd probably function, but there would be a regular and lengthy queue of cars at every traffic signal. Additionally, traffic signal operations would have to designed in order to favour vehicular movements over those of pedestrians, as there I can't see there being much residual capacity at any of the signals (particularly when you factor in left turn movements). The urban boulevard would not have been the iddelic space that it was portrayed to be in the mock ups, in reality it would be chronically congested and probably not that pedestrian friendly.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 06:55 AM   #3323
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the plan in place had assumed crossing setups that gave a midpoint between pedestrians and drivers.


Both options involve complete demolition of the existing structure from my understanding, the hybrid just involves rebuilding it. Capital costs were also slightly lower for the boulevard, not the hybrid.


The boulevard would have been extremely similar to what we see on University Avenue today, but with higher traffic levels. The key to making high traffic boulevards pedestrian freindly is to make sure there are wide sidewalks that are lined with mature trees. Another good example of a high traffic pedestrian freindly street would be Yonge Street in North York, which is 6 lanes wide with extremely high traffic levels and is very pedestrian friendly.

In the end I was torn on the issue, but was leaning remove. I'm not particularly upset they chose the hybrid, the inner driver of me kind of likes it, but my realist side pushes me to think that the boulevard would have been the better choice.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 09:45 AM   #3324
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The 'boulevard' option was unrealistically presented as just another idyllic city boulevard.

In reality it would've been an overloaded wide urban arterial to handle 120,000+ vehicles per day. That is current Gardiner traffic (112,000) + Lake Shore Boulevard traffic + future traffic growth due to new developments. That's not pedestrian-friendly at all. A six-lane urban boulevard would not have been sufficient to handle that kind of traffic.

It would've carried *much* more traffic than any other urban boulevard in Toronto. Eglinton Avenue just nicks 50,000 vpd, and Bloor just touches the 50,000 mark near the DVP as well. University Avenue carries 59,000 vehicles per day on its eight-lane segment.

In fact, there are no precedents in North America for urban streets with that kind of traffic volumes.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 01:55 PM   #3325
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Such boulevard would be an immediate air pollution and noise hotspot.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 02:33 PM   #3326
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Philadelphia's Roosevelt Boulevard (US 1) carries 80,000 vehicles per day on 12 lanes:


Wilshire Avenue in Los Angeles carries 120,000 vehicles per day between the I-405 interchange and Veteran Avenue and 84,000 vehicles per day until the next intersection. The Veteran Avenue intersection is said to be the busiest traffic light-controlled intersection in the United States. From what I understand it is congested throughout the day.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 08:16 PM   #3327
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Traffic levels would drop from removal like they have on other freeway removals (west side highway, embarcadero). The 112,000 number would likely have dropped significantly.

Also, traffic levels on the downtown freeways have remained largely unchanged for the last few decades. 95% of new trips into the downtown are made by transit, largely because there isn't any new capacity being built and the existing network is "full"

The little growth that has occurred has been in counter peak traffic, as the downtown population has increased hugely in the last decade leading to more people driving to suburban jobs.
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Old June 12th, 2015, 08:33 PM   #3328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Traffic levels would drop from removal like they have on other freeway removals (west side highway, embarcadero). The 112,000 number would likely have dropped significantly.
You mean all that through traffic that apparently wasn't there to begin with?
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Old June 12th, 2015, 10:43 PM   #3329
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60,000 is really the upper limit at which six-lane arterials still function. Otherwise you would need very large intersections.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 01:24 AM   #3330
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It was planned to be an 8 lane Boulevard.

Regardless, they are keeping the freeway.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 01:36 AM   #3331
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They'll keep the freeway but this debate is NOT over
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Old June 13th, 2015, 03:13 AM   #3332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
It was planned to be an 8 lane Boulevard.

Regardless, they are keeping the freeway.
The problem is now how many lanes the boulevard has, but the intersections.

It irks me when people proposing freeway teardowns (I'm not referring to you) go there and say "oh, traffic will always find a way". Of course it will, cars can't suddenly fly and drivers won't stay on 5h/direction traffic jams, but that doesn't mean the traffic readjustment doesn't have wider repercussions, such as make an area less accessible by car and therefore its jobs less accessible to people living far away.

So it is no surprise proponents of most freeway demolitions are mostly people for whom long-distnace commuting doesn't exist (and many are outright hostile at the notion thousands of workers in 'their' neighborhood just come and go each day without 'being part of the local walkable community and contributing to it')

Toronto also doesn't have a super public transportation system, it has the GO system, light rail and laughable buses.
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Old June 13th, 2015, 03:53 AM   #3333
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I wouldn't call Toronto's public transit as not-super, it is pretty good and a lot of people (an absudly high number of people even) use it. The continued use of streetcars though is archaic and makes life difficult unnecessarily (cars need to stop when they unload people, cyclists get their tyres stuck in the rails, and every time it is cold, they break down)

But even then, there is congestion in the public transit too, induced demand I guess :P They have been talking of constructing a second subway line in the downtown area as a bypass for the existing congested subway line. But the extension project underway of the north-south line to the north has had such large delays and cost overruns (as always) and is running in a simple area (not intensely developed as downtown), I am not optimistic it would be built. But the construction of that line was considered as a requirement in the "boulevard" concept....

Long-distance commuting is a fact of life in the area as well, an inevitable result of a very large population and a urban area necessarily "flattened" by the presence of the lake. I would consider a commute to work of 50 km in one direction to be rather short

*** Oh and that Bloor near the DVP (after the cancelled freeway ramps) is total hell. I remember once getting stuck there in traffic in the summer, on a Saturday, in 20 minutes I don't think I moved 20 metres. I never again went there
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Old June 13th, 2015, 10:33 AM   #3334
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yeah much faster just taking Avenue Road downtown instead during rush hours.
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Old June 14th, 2015, 01:28 AM   #3335
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1966 road time-lapse movie by the Department of Transporation of British Columbia (they have more stuff in their channel)


.
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Old June 14th, 2015, 01:32 AM   #3336
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more

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Old June 14th, 2015, 02:05 AM   #3337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
1966 road time-lapse movie by the Department of Transporation of British Columbia (they have more stuff in their channel)

.
Note how they refer to the road as "Hwy 401"
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Old June 14th, 2015, 06:44 PM   #3338
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Interesting photos of when Toronto demolished the eastern Gardiner.



More pics
http://www.blogto.com/city/2015/06/t..._the_gardiner/
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 04:00 AM   #3339
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Canada's first diverging diamond is coming to Calgary

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/140...-on-left-side/

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Old June 23rd, 2015, 05:04 AM   #3340
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weird they decided on that

I thought they had planed a parclo with double loops on the south side of 162nd

See the reserved ROW with plenty space:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...52b63a!6m1!1e1

Anyway I can't wait to see a freeway Macleod Trail to Anderson road and beyond!
Now if only they could put the speed back to 110...
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