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Old December 19th, 2015, 01:43 AM   #3621
Innsertnamehere
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people like homes, but the really, really like the greenbelt. It has something like 90% support, which for political things, is really damn high.

The plan isn't perfect, but a lot of the defects are likely going to be fixed with the review. The whole point of it is to see where there are issues in land use planning in the GTA right now and figure out how to fix them.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:54 AM   #3622
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Artifical growth boundaries only lead to unaffordable housing and longer commutes (from beyond a 'greenbelt').
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Old December 19th, 2015, 08:55 PM   #3623
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^depends on how wide a range you draw with the greenbelt. The greenbelt hasn't really placed a hard restriction on developable land as it leaves vast swaths of undeveloped land within it, but the other policies involved are changing things by forcing higher densities in greenfield development and requiring a certain amount of a municipalities growth to be within the existing urban boundary.

You can see the effects of it if you go over to the highrises section of SSC, lots of skyscrapers going up in Toronto these days.

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Old December 19th, 2015, 09:04 PM   #3624
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The 2005 addition of the protected green belt will eventually result in those 'leapfrog developments' that is despised so much in certain circles. People don't want to raise children on the 40th floor of a fancy skyscraper. Canadian household debt is also rising very fast, and a major factor is housing, because the cost of housing rises much faster than incomes, which is observed in many areas with artifical growth boundaries, such as Auckland or London (UK). It also attracts many foreign buyers who don't actually live in these apartments, which drives up prices even more.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 09:16 PM   #3625
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You can see it in the map shown already, that small little grey square in the south-east corner of Hamilton, developers had zoning approval before the greenbelt was invented, and now they build lots of houses
I think politically it isn't too unpopular, since of course for homeowners already it is not so bad... especially if you are nearing retirement age, it's like an extra $100k of cash in hand for nothing.
I'm not sure if skyscrapers are really affected by this. There's for sure a large shift to townhomes and kind of semi-dense development in the outer 905, but skyscrapers are more of a prestige thing, I doubt anyone cross-shops them with houses.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 09:52 PM   #3626
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There is still plenty of new housing stock getting built, in a denser form. Its gone from 15m wide lots to 11m wide lots, with way more townhomes in new developments. As I said, there is still what is known as "whitebelt" lands within the greenbelt that can be developed to continue to provide new stock.

The Apartment market has become much larger recently. Families usually still live in homes and not apartments, but people only have kids for 20 years of their lives. Young people and seniors are increasingly in apartments, which they used to live in houses.


In 2005 the market was 60% detached and 30% multi family, now its the opposite. Toronto is desperately trying to avoid becoming another LA, and it seems to generally be working.

Binbrook is one of several towns that have had a lot of growth recently, but much of it predates the greenbelt and was "grandfathered" in, as time goes forward these areas will reduce in prominence.

The GTA consumes an estimated 40% less land annually than 10 years ago, which was the point of the policy.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:00 PM   #3627
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The map shows how the Toronto urban area has grown from 1981 to 2013, if this trend continues, considering the high growth rate of the GTA, the urban area will hit its limitations at one point or the other. I've frequently read about the über expensive housing in some Canadian cities on CBC. Vancouver is probably worse than Toronto, but it is still very expensive.

Expensive housing may seem like a boon to those already owning a house for a long period of time, but it hurts the economy (less discretionary spending) and limits upward mobility. Some think you can solve the unaffordability of housing by constructing tiny houses / apartments at the price of a big detached single-family house elsewhere, but I don't think that's the right way to go. People need some reasonable space to live. It's not just about the cost per unit, but also per square foot.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 07:40 AM   #3628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The map shows how the Toronto urban area has grown from 1981 to 2013, if this trend continues, considering the high growth rate of the GTA, the urban area will hit its limitations at one point or the other. I've frequently read about the über expensive housing in some Canadian cities on CBC. Vancouver is probably worse than Toronto, but it is still very expensive.

Expensive housing may seem like a boon to those already owning a house for a long period of time, but it hurts the economy (less discretionary spending) and limits upward mobility. Some think you can solve the unaffordability of housing by constructing tiny houses / apartments at the price of a big detached single-family house elsewhere, but I don't think that's the right way to go. People need some reasonable space to live. It's not just about the cost per unit, but also per square foot.
Meanwhile, others think the Japanese approach is best. That would, however, involve massive reductions in zoning specificity, rethinking our transportation system's finer details, reducing or eliminating parking minima, and in general giving developers substantially more freedom to build what they want to build.

I'd suggest Urban Kchose and Old Urbanist as being sources on that subject.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 11:41 AM   #3629
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Land mix-use is a good idea. It is being done in downtown and in a lot of the condos being built along Yonge Street up north
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Old December 20th, 2015, 11:56 AM   #3630
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Toronto's suburbs are actually fairly dense, especially compared to suburban / exurban areas of eastern U.S.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 10:35 PM   #3631
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effects of the Greenbelt in Stouffville's newer developments
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Old December 21st, 2015, 02:45 AM   #3632
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^ http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/Asset4281.aspx

That development does not fall within the "greenbelt". As I said, the greenbelt is actually quite liberal with its boundaries. Lots of space to develop within it. There is accompanying policy (the growth plan) that is the real "teeth" of the land use program.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 06:27 AM   #3633
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The map you posted is quite clear. But even now, they know they cannot expand limitlessly. The more land they conserve now, the less expensive land acquisition would be in the future for commercial developments.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 02:38 AM   #3634
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Watch everyone start freaking out in 10 years about "urban heat island effect" and then all the super-dense developments go back to how they were in 1960's with big lots again
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 03:25 AM   #3635
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I have made an interchange in SimCity 4 inspired by the 400 / 401 junction in Toronto.

Click here for a full size image: https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/779/23...8dc3de30_o.jpg

Location: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.71699...5163695,16.63z

Smaller image below:
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 03:56 AM   #3636
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I'm pretty amused that you used more correct road shields than the official government funded 401/400 Interchange website
http://400-401interchange.ca/
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 07:00 AM   #3637
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The original "Streetveiw" in BC, Canada, thanks to the Ministry of Transportation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV1-...cwl5mMO2bz2x8w

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Old December 22nd, 2015, 07:16 AM   #3638
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How was the greenbelt drawn? Was it arbitrary? Does it follow specific features of the landscape? I think they could reform the greenbelt by doing an analysis of watersheds, groundwater recharge zones, areas of comparatively high quality and less fragmented wildlife habitats, areas of high recreation potential, etc, and then slim down the boundaries to only those places. There should be specific "eco corridors" and nature preserves. Everything else would be an overlay district with specific rules about development but not necessarily ban it. So if you built a subdivision in a watershed it would need to have more advanced runoff retention from roads or any other tainted surface and swales and things allowing clean water penetration to the aquifer below. But developers could still build if they follow the rules.

Anyways, as others have said, constraining housing supply merely screws over the working/middle class. They pay more for housing or are forced to commute further. It's a failed policy. As Hammer said, I'd loosen up zoning laws to boost supply and focus on "pull" factors to make people want to live and work in the city.
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Old December 22nd, 2015, 10:58 PM   #3639
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The original dark green swath follows the Niagara Escarpment. It's a bit of a natural delineation (that's an understatement).
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Old December 29th, 2015, 11:22 PM   #3640
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Another update on the 407 and 412 construction in Toronto by sonysnob at SSP:

The new 3 stack interchange between the 407 and 412:








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