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Old February 1st, 2005, 10:25 PM   #41
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Why are you bitching when you are the cause of the problem?
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Old February 1st, 2005, 10:47 PM   #42
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How am I the cause of the problem jack ass?

My job requires driving to various clients in Toronto, Mississauga, Markham, Thornhill, Vaughn, etc., all day. Do you suggest that I take the TTC to all my appointments or pay inordinate amounts of money for a cab to drive me to my 8-10 meetings a day?

Yeah, yeah...I know, for tree-hugging hippies like you who know nothing about a hard-days' work, the TTC is great and so is cycling in frigid weather, but for real hard-working individuals like me I rely on an automobile....and for the millions of others who work every day to support your welfare payments through their taxes, they rely on cars too!

NUFF SAID.
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Old February 1st, 2005, 11:17 PM   #43
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"How am I the cause of the problem jack ass?"

What an utterly dumb question. I'm surprised you had the mental capacity to pass your driving exam.

It's quite simply guy. You drive, thus you contribute to gridlock. Compound your sob story with thousands of others and voila, you have daily gridlock on our highways.

Is that clear enough for ya?
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Old February 1st, 2005, 11:48 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FANATIC
No matter how nice these highways look, it still is not enough to rid Toronto of its insane congestion and rush-hours! I get on the 401 every frigging morning for work at Leslie St. and head west towards the Kipling/Belfield exit (just after the Islington exit). The ride is only 15 kilometers but it takes me one hour whether I take the Express lanes or Collector lanes. It is a friggin joke! No wonder there is so much road rage in this city! There are too many cars!!!

In my opinion we need twenty 401's to get rid of the shit that takes place on a daily basis for millions of drivers in Toronto.
!
Actually, we have enough highways. Plus, studies have shown that by adding more highways/lanes, traffic doesn't improve.

The problem lies with transit. I think the 407 should be trucks only, as well as sperated grade lanes on the 400 and 427. Goods should be able to flow throughout the region. If you choose to drive, then you already know the consequences.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 05:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roch5220
Actually, we have enough highways. Plus, studies have shown that by adding more highways/lanes, traffic doesn't improve.

The problem lies with transit. I think the 407 should be trucks only, as well as sperated grade lanes on the 400 and 427. Goods should be able to flow throughout the region. If you choose to drive, then you already know the consequences.
Driving is more then just a choice. For many it is the only option for the commute to work, since most people no longer work in the CBD of a city. Transit is a very important part of the solution, but freeways and increased road capacity are also very important.

I was very upset when The Eglinton West subway line in Toronto was canned, and the Sheppard was scaled back. These would have made good additions to the transit network, but wouldn't have fully solved torontos congestion troubles.

Did you know that more people commute out of the Scarborough and into Markham then the other way around? Transit will not be a good solution to this problem because transit is good for bringing passengers from many places to one central place, and not from many places to many places.

Cheers!
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 05:45 AM   #46
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^No, it is a collective choice. If people demand to work downtown, eventually things will change. Such as the marketability of locating in Manhattan vs its surronding boroughs and NJ. It is a business decision that firms make where to locate. It is also a lack of gov't incentives as well re: commericial property taxes. In addition, cause the gov't doesn't fund transit properly, the TTC system still handles ridership patterns from 1988, which isn't uptodate.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 06:04 AM   #47
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really nice roads.


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Old February 2nd, 2005, 01:15 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonysnob
Did you know that more people commute out of the Scarborough and into Markham then the other way around? Transit will not be a good solution to this problem because transit is good for bringing passengers from many places to one central place, and not from many places to many places.

Cheers!
Scott Steeves
Heard that one before, it is a good point, and Mississauga can also be noted as a strong and growing business city although it doesn't outpower Etobicoke (a bit of a high order yet). However with pulls going east and west at the same time at both rush hours, the situation quickly becomes ridiculous and it won't matter how much more highway space you add - it will be used up and over capacity again once it is constructed and opened. The same happens on railway lines in Asia - Japan Railway East has a very chronic problem with that pattern on certain lines (one sits at 220% capacity despite having 4 tracks to serve it).

I think part of the solution would lie in more application of flex time, but this is a dangerous gamble, because if it becomes popular then traffic will be just be slower all day than it already is, even though the DVP can't get any slower.

There are some exorberantly expensive solutions to some of the problems, and as such they'll never be considered. Transit can't solve it either, although it is a critical pillar to supporting the existing structure of transportation within Toronto limits, and during rush hours; the immediate (and a few select distant) suburbs as well.

What I think the government is being silly is in its reluctancy to even consider the possibility of tolls on the DVP or Gardiner, and possibly the 401 at the collector/express interchanges. The only way to reduce the congestion is to make transit cheaper than driving, and while one could argue that gas does that already, people don't notice the gas costs as much as they'll notice highway toll charges . In a country that is supposed to be participating in Kyoto, this is a good move in support of such a program/agenda.

I generally hate highways and really large roadways, usually because they are walled off in large portions and as such act as a barrier as well as being uninteresting to drivers, plus the fact that they don't move through most of non-Sunday daylit time. The drive along the Gardiner is quite nice at night and on a Sunday's dawn. The 401, meh, really, too much asphalt IMO.
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Old February 2nd, 2005, 03:49 PM   #49
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I'd like to make one point, it is faster to take surrounding roads than it is to use the 401 during rush hour.
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Old February 3rd, 2005, 05:12 AM   #50
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^Yep, more than half the time that is true, but not all the time. Usually only the city people know this tidbit though, Lots of the suburbanites don't know the city apart from their immediate work vicinity, and so are scared to get off the highway.
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Old February 3rd, 2005, 05:42 AM   #51
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^True. I find that the streets further South, like Lawrence, St. Clair, are not as jammed as Highway 7, Rutherford, Steeles, Sheppard or Finch. Don Mills/Bayview are by-routes I like to take as an alternative to the DVP.
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Old February 3rd, 2005, 05:45 AM   #52
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yeah my grandfather and me and my bro were coming from the science centre to milton, and we got on the DVP and then at the next exit north we got off, took us 10 minutes to get from one exit to the other. It took us 90 minutes to get from the OSC to milton, taking the DVP (shortly), Lawrance, keele then the 401
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Old February 6th, 2005, 04:22 PM   #53
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Old February 7th, 2005, 11:59 AM   #54
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"In my opinion we need twenty 401's to get rid of the shit that takes place on a daily basis for millions of drivers in Toronto."


Well, we aren't going to get them...so if you want to avoid the worst traffic, then you have to come up with some other options (like moving closer to work...changing hours)...or just suck it up...ragging on everybody who doesn't drive as your big problem is just stupid.






"I know, for tree-hugging hippies like you who know nothing about a hard-days' work, the TTC is great and so is cycling in frigid weather, but for real hard-working individuals like me I rely on an automobile....and for the millions of others who work every day to support your welfare payments through their taxes, they rely on cars too! "


I'm a little confused here...you hate your fellow cross-town morning drivers, and you hate the people who don't drive too. Sounds like what you really want is your own private highway.

And what's with the bizzaro idea that you are a "hard worker" if you sit in traffic every morning, and a tree-hugging hippy on welfare if you don't?

I'm a little more worried about adults still using phrases like "NUFF SAID".





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Old March 30th, 2005, 07:50 PM   #55
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^ LOL
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Old March 30th, 2005, 10:29 PM   #56
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Hmmmm

If you:
1. Won't move closer to work
2. Won't take public transit (or can't becuase you live somewhere that doesn't have transit that can take you to work)
3. Refuse to get a job closer to work
4. Have a job that requires you to drive a lot

...I find it extremely difficult to feel sorry for anybody in this position. They're doing absolutely nothing to help themsleves, but complain at other drivers or the lack of highways. Building more highways won't help anything, because then more people can drive on them; they'll fill up soon enough. LA, Atlanta, or Houston should be more than enough evidence to show that.

If you cross the city to get to your job, why are you living/working on the other side of the city? Surely when you either moved in one location or got a job in the other you knew what was going to happen. If you've been doing this for years, you've had a lot of time to realize what was happening and deciding to take a change in life.

How much is your time worth to you? Two hours a day wasted. How much do you equivalently make at work an hour? Don't bitch at other people when they offer solutions or to the government when they do nothing (build more roads/transit). Do something to help yourself for once. MOVE OR GET A JOB CLOSER TO HOME. Invent a teleporter. SOMETHING.
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Old March 30th, 2005, 11:22 PM   #57
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^I have far more sympathy for people in that possition than you. Traffic and highways are a fact of life.

Here is my thoughts on your points Chris.

1) In many cases it isn't won't move but can't move. Housing costs and size issues prevent people from moving closer to work all the time.

2) PT is great and I go to great lengths to use it, and I do succeed at it. But for some one who say lives in Rexdale and commutes to NYCC, taking a bus along the north end of the city takes forever. I kid you not that it might take 1:30 hours one way. That makes PT a little less attractive.

For me, instead of blaming a poor sap who is in that possition, I blame upper levels of government for not improving transit for that person.

3) If you have a job of your dreams that you are well settled in and it would be hard if not impossible to find another just like it, you too would be reluctant to change jobs.

4) Cable/Satellite/phone repairmen, electricians, plumbers, realestate agents,....... well many professions require quick hops between sites that are infeesable on PT and are all professions that we need as a society so there is not solution other than a car.
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Old March 31st, 2005, 05:22 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
^I have far more sympathy for people in that possition than you. Traffic and highways are a fact of life.
I never said it wasn't. I said that people in these positions don't do anything for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
Here is my thoughts on your points Chris.

1) In many cases it isn't won't move but can't move. Housing costs and size issues prevent people from moving closer to work all the time.
I'm not telling anybody to move into a condo right next to their downtown work's skyscrapper, though if I personally didn't have kids, I'd do it in a second ;-). But if you're working in Mississauga and living in Ajax, what have you done to yourself? You knew what would happen, having to drive THROUGH the city, when you either moved to one place or got a job in another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
2) PT is great and I go to great lengths to use it, and I do succeed at it. But for some one who say lives in Rexdale and commutes to NYCC, taking a bus along the north end of the city takes forever. I kid you not that it might take 1:30 hours one way. That makes PT a little less attractive.

For me, instead of blaming a poor sap who is in that possition, I blame upper levels of government for not improving transit for that person.
I already covered myself in my point #2. If PT is not available, then obviously everybody else is in the same position. Everybody else is going to drive.

What should the government do? Should they build more highways? Where? Should they level a huge strip of land from one end of the city to another for a new freeway? What about property rights? What happens when that road fills up with traffic? I never said that they should build a huge subway from one suburb to another. People would have to rely on busses to get them right to their location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
3) If you have a job of your dreams that you are well settled in and it would be hard if not impossible to find another just like it, you too would be reluctant to change jobs.
I find it hard to believe that most people commuting accross the city have found the job of their dreams and a house that is any more expensive or perfect than they could find on the other side of the city. If traffic is affecting their quality of life, then they should be at least trying to do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
4) Cable/Satellite/phone repairmen, electricians, plumbers, realestate agents,....... well many professions require quick hops between sites that are infeesable on PT and are all professions that we need as a society so there is not solution other than a car.
These people I have more sympathy for, with the noted fact that this is a cost of business.

Please keep in mind that I don't think we should level every highway in exsistance. I beleive that highways that go INTO cities are a blight, though. The gardiner in Toronto should go away, or at least be burried. Many of the greatest cities in the world get along very fine without them (Paris, NYC, Vancouver, San Francisco). Look what happened to Boston and Detriot after they leveled cities for roads.
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Old April 1st, 2005, 10:53 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by hylaride
Please keep in mind that I don't think we should level every highway in exsistance. I beleive that highways that go INTO cities are a blight, though. The gardiner in Toronto should go away, or at least be burried. Many of the greatest cities in the world get along very fine without them (Paris, NYC, Vancouver, San Francisco). Look what happened to Boston and Detriot after they leveled cities for roads.
I dont think this is a very fair comparison. Firstly, Paris is an example of highway building through a city, except that it happened about a century before north american cities. Baron Haussmann raized huge sections of old Paris to build straight, wide avenues and to allow for various public amenities. Secondly, to use the example of New York as a positive I think is also false. New Yorkers suffer with the longest average daily travel time to work in North America, despite having the most developed transit systems.

I would agree that San Francisco is a good example of a city that can cope with its traffic flow, but that is largeley as a result of the decentralization of the bay area with respect to employment and transit.

It is in this regard that Toronto's transit system fails. Public transit in Toronto does not succeed in reducing traffic on the highways because it cannot replace them. The isssue is that many of the largest highways (401, 427, 400, 404, 410, 403) are busy because they allow easy, relatively direct routes to work for the massive number of people who work in the outer suburbs (like Mississauga or Markam) or in the inner suburbs (North York, Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc.). Public transit however focuses on downtown, with the subway and GO systems converge on Union Station. The only type of public transit that adequately serves the suburbs are busses, which are far from ideal for most people. Until there is a drive to either construct more highways in the GTA, and focus on improving the emissions and efficiency of the vehicles on those highways, rather than deamonizing the highways themselves, or the federal gov't gets off its pile of cash long enough to build establish a more effective, unified GTA transit system so that the majority of workers can use it, the traffic mess in toronto will never clear up.
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Old April 2nd, 2005, 11:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Froster
I dont think this is a very fair comparison. Firstly, Paris is an example of highway building through a city, except that it happened about a century before north american cities. Baron Haussmann raized huge sections of old Paris to build straight, wide avenues and to allow for various public amenities. Secondly, to use the example of New York as a positive I think is also false. New Yorkers suffer with the longest average daily travel time to work in North America, despite having the most developed transit systems.
Avenues and boulevards are very different than freeways. Freeways promote no localism. The 'highways' of paris do not compare to the 401 or highways through other North American cities. Boulevards in paris have large sidewalks and do not separate large sections of the city with several lanes of high speed (+100km/hr) traffic.

The commute times for NYC also include people from far off suburbs and satellite cities. The suburbs of NYC are very large and cross state lines, and some people go for 2 hours 1 way! People living and working in Manhatten do not have those commute times, neither do people living and working in queens, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froster
I would agree that San Francisco is a good example of a city that can cope with its traffic flow, but that is largeley as a result of the decentralization of the bay area with respect to employment and transit.
This was what I was advocating! I'm for mixed use development! The biggest problem that I see with current development trends in the suburbs is the overly strict separation of commercial and resedential real estate (but keep inustrial separate!). The way they're building now, they have acres of development for houses only, to the point where there are not even corner stores. This creates a very real problem in that it is almost impossible to get a house close to work.

What I do like is the burried highway philosphy. It works very well in the areas around downtown Montreal, without separating the downtown from old montreal! This is what they should do to the gardiner in Toronto.
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