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Old October 19th, 2007, 04:15 PM   #801
sonysnob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
Well, all the available data is up to 2004, so strictly speaking, it is possible that nowadays the average AADT in that section is close to 500k.
No its not. traffic can't grow that substantially in two and a half years. Look at the data to see how long its taken to jump from 300,000 to 400,000.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 04:34 PM   #802
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I agree sonysnob. AADT stands for Annual Average Daily traffic. Mostly worked out to workdays (monday - friday).

20% growth is highly unlikely in 2 years. Such growths are only possible on roads with low AADT which have a new neighborhood or a new connecting road at the road.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #803
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Truly amazing!...Beautiful!
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Old October 19th, 2007, 10:35 PM   #804
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Originally Posted by LordMandeep View Post
The 401 is so busy now, that there are sometimes traffic jams from volume on sunday. Also very busy throughout Saturday and at night.

the 401 is always busy, and it should be. Its the highway that moves most of Ontario really.


You see my American Friends, this is where Canadian cities differ...Toronto doesn't have such strong inner city neighbourhoods for no reason, do you think??
Well...my gut reaction to your statement is....I guess you've never been to NYC, San Franciso, Boston, Chicago etc....all these cities have great urban neighborhoods. NYC completely destroys Toronto on every urban level possible. I also find the nightlife in several larger American cities to be more exciting than Toronto. So maybe Canada doesnt differ from the US as much as you like to think. My second point would be that you cant even compare urban Canada to urban US. There's just so many more large cities in the US. The population in the US is so much larger. The entire country of Canada has a smaller population than California!! I'm sure that you can think of a few US cities that have intrusional highway systems, but thats in large part due to the fact that there's so many large cities in this country to pick from. I could say that its easy to have nice large cities in Canada when you only have 2 cities with more than a million people!...but I wont because I love Canada!!....but I just had to point that fact out to you.

Last edited by kingsdl76; October 19th, 2007 at 10:41 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 11:02 PM   #805
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Not even close!!

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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
445,822 is that now the busiest in the world? It's way more as LA's busiest (390,000).
Not to get into a city vs city thing....but....Toronto cant even begin to compare with the amount of traffic that the Los Angeles freeway system gets....not by a longshot. I realize that heavy freeway traffic is not really a quality of a city that you want to brag about either....but...for the sake of comparison its fun.
For starters, the 405 actually has traffic volumes of over 400,000 vehicles per/day and the 110, which is a close second is probably approaching 400k as well. Additionally, did you know that there are about 20 other areas in the LA system that have well over 300k per/day?!!....and who knows how many more approaching the 300k mark. Toronto may have one freeway that is busier than one LA freeway but thats because Toronto, comparatively, has so few freeways. Here is the official traffic count from 2002 for the LA area...and this only includes a fraction of all the freeways in the LA area...and this is 5 years ago!!

Los Angeles - Orange County - Riverside - San Bernardino - Ventura:

I-5 - San Diego/Orange County Line: 171,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - Aveindo Pico - San Clemente: 203,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - CA 1- San Juan Capistrano & Dana Point: 248,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - Avery Pkwy - Mission Viejo: 268,000 - 12 lanes??
I-5 - Oso Pkwy - Mission Viejo: 314,000 - 12 lanes??
I-5 - Lake Forest Dr - Lake Forest: 364,000 - 16 lanes??
I-5 - I-405 - Irvine: 396,000: 18 lanes??
I-5 - Jamboree Rd - Irvine: 298,000 lanes???
I-5 - CA 55 - Tustin: 331,000 lanes???
I-5 - CA 22 & 57 - Orange: 351,000 lanes??
I-5 - CA 91 - Anaheim: 245,000 lanes??
I-5 - Firestone Blvd - Norwalk: 191,000 - 8 lanes??
I-5 - I-605 - Santa Fe Springs: 253,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - I-710 - Los Angeles: 271,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - I-10 - Los Angeles: 243,000 - 8 lanes??
I-5 - Stadium Way - Los Angeles: 304,000 - 10 lanes
I-5 - Roscoe Blvd - Sun Valley: 195,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - CA 170 - Sun Valley: 311,000 - 14 lanes
I-5 - Mission Hills Blvd - Mission Hills: 154,000 - 6 lanes
I-5 - I-210 - Sylmar: 310,000 - 16 lanes (4 truck lanes)
I-5 - Calgrove Blvd - Santa Clarita - 226,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - CA 126 - Santa Clarita - 174,000 - 8 lanes
I-5 - Top of the Grapevine - 79,000 - 8 lanes

I-105 – CA 1/Sepulveda Blvd – Los Angeles: 94,000
I-105 – East of I-405 – Lennox: 207,000
I-105 – Crenshaw Blvd – Inglewood: 252,000
I-105 – East of I-110 – Los Angeles: 243,000
I-105 – Wilmington Ave – Willowbrook: 220,000
I-105 – East of I-710 – Lynwood: 178,000
I-105 – I-605 – Norwalk: 195,000


I-405 - CA 133 - Irvine: 220,000 - 12 lanes
I-405 - Jamboree Rd - Irvine: 271,000 - 12 lanes
I-405 - CA 55 - Costa Mesa: 303,000
I-405 - Beach Blvd - Huntington Beach: 251,000
I-405 - CA 22 - Westminster: 394,000
I-405 - Palo Verde Ave - Long Beach: 271,000
I-405 - I-710 - Long Beach: 297,000
I-405 - I-110 - Carson: 272,000
I-405 - I-105 - Inglewood: 340,000
I-405 - CA 90 - Marina Del Ray: 314,000
I-405 - Santa Monica Blvd - Los Angeles: 321,000
I-405 - U.S. 101 - Los Angeles: 278,000
I-405 - Sherman Way - Los Angeles: 229,000
I-405 - Between CA 118 and I-5: 140,000

I-605 - I-405 - Seal Beach - 194,000
I-605 - Carson St - Lakewood - 237,000
I-605 - CA 91 - Cerritos - 309,000
I-605 - I-5 - 306,000
I-605 - Whittier Blvd - Whittier - 253,000
I-605 - I-10 - Baldwin Park - 219,000
I-605 - I-210 - Irwindale: 130,000

I-10 – Pico Blvd – Santa Monica: 204,000
I-10 – East of I-405 – Los Angeles: 263,000
I-10 – La Brea Ave – Los Angeles: 283,000
I-10 – Western Ave – Los Angeles: 323,000
I-10 – West of I-110 – Los Angeles: 339,000
I-10 – Santa Fe. Ave – Los Angeles: 290,000
I-10 – I-710 – Monterey Park: 255,000
I-10 – Del Mar Ave – Alhambra: 255,000
I-10 – Garvey Ave – El Monte: 221,000
I-10 – East of I-605 – Baldwin Park: 262,000
I-10 – CA 39/Azusu Ave – West Covina: 239,000
I-10 – Via Verde: 209,000
I-10 – CA 57 & 71 (former I-210) – Pomona: 282,000
I-10 – Central Ave – Montclair: 267,000
I-10 – West of I-15 – Ontario: 265,000
I-10 – Sierra Ave – Fontana: 190,000
I-10 – West of I-215 – Colton: 179,000
I-10 – Waterman Ave – San Bernardino: 195,000
I-10 – California St – Redlands: 172,000
I-10 – San Timoteo Canyon Rd: 67,000
I-10 – At CA 60 freeway: 101,000

I-110 (Also CA 110)
I-110 – CA 47/Vincent Thomas Bridge: 70,000
I-110 – CA 1 PCH – Wilmington: 139,000
I-110 – I-405: 250,000
I-110 – CA 91 Artesia Freeway - Los Angeles: 205,000
I-110 – El Segundo Blvd – Los Angeles: 252,000
I-110 – I-105 – Los Angeles: 308,000
I-110 – Florence Ave – Los Angeles: 320,000
I-110 – North of I-10 – Los Angeles: 351,000
I-110 – Olympic Blvd – Los Angeles: 371,000
I-110 – South of U.S. 101 – Los Angeles: 349,000
I-110 – Dodger Stadium – Los Angeles: 191,000
CA 110 – North of I-5 – Los Angeles: 135,000
CA 110 – Avenue 60 – Highland Park: 105,000
CA 110 – Bridewell St – South Pasadena: 89,000
CA 110 – End of Freeway – Pasadena: 48,000

I-210/CA 210(DOES NOT include 210 extension into San Bernardino County)

I-210 – I-5 – 78,000
I-210 – West of CA 118 frwy – Los Angeles: 124,000
I-210 – Wheatland Ave – Los Angeles: 107,000
I-210 – Lowell Ave – Glendale: 139,000
I-210 – West of CA 2 frwy – 168,000
I-210 – Foothill Blvd – La Canada Flintridge: 105,000
I-210 – North of CA 134 & CA 110 interchange - Pasadena: 138,000
I-210 – East of CA 134 & CA 110 - Pasadena: 328,000
I-210 – Allen Ave – Pasadena: 322,000
I-210 – East of CA 164/Rosemead Blvd – Pasadena: 273,000
I-210 – West of I-605 – Duarte: 256,000
I-210 – Vernon Ave – Azusa: 209,000
I-210 – Former CA 30 Frwy (Now CA 210 Extension): 187,000

(Note: Traffic counts for CA 210 will be available in 2004)

......let that sink in for awhile!!

Last edited by kingsdl76; October 19th, 2007 at 11:33 PM.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 12:16 AM   #806
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Don't turn this into a different pissing match. In terms of the shear volume of vehicles on the shear number of freeways Toronto doesn't even come close to La. -- Or that of most US cities to be quite frank. However, your data does indeed agree with the claim that Toronto's 401 is indeed the busiest freeway in North America, and quite likely the world.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 01:17 AM   #807
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I'm really glad that 1966 plan never happened. Sure the DVP is pretty badly overcrowded, but at the same time it's a hell of a lot better than having half a dozen highways criss-crossing central Toronto.
Richview would've been disastrous, as well as Spadina. The Crosstown also would've been bad, but there are ways to make it work now. I don't think it's worth it though. East Gardiner(Scarborough) could've worked under the 1973 plan, but it wouldn't now, and I'm also glad that didn't happen.

400 though, should be completed. That thing would not be like Spadina at all. Hwy 448 would be in a hydro corridor, and have few interchanges.



Quote:
Though that Queen subway... I wish!
It can still happen, and it should.



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And out of curiosity, do you know why the Spadina side of the Y-U-S line is highlighted on that top map?
Spadina wasn't completed at that time.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 02:13 AM   #808
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Originally Posted by noob(but not really) View Post
Richview would've been disastrous, as well as Spadina. The Crosstown also would've been bad, but there are ways to make it work now. I don't think it's worth it though. East Gardiner(Scarborough) could've worked under the 1973 plan, but it wouldn't now, and I'm also glad that didn't happen.

400 though, should be completed. That thing would not be like Spadina at all. Hwy 448 would be in a hydro corridor, and have few interchanges.
Agreed on the 448, for sure, that would definitely ease some of the pressure on the DVP. The 400 I can definitely see the reasoning behind, I just think it would be a lot harder to build without disturbing that side of the city.

I don't know the planning history, but just from looking at images on Google Maps, it looks like the corridor for the 400 runs down where Black Creek Dr. is now, right? That section looks easy enough to convert to a limited-access highway, but where would it go once it got past Weston? I don't see any corridor that a 6-land highway could run down.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 02:25 AM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadave87 View Post
Agreed on the 448, for sure, that would definitely ease some of the pressure on the DVP. The 400 I can definitely see the reasoning behind, I just think it would be a lot harder to build without disturbing that side of the city.

I don't know the planning history, but just from looking at images on Google Maps, it looks like the corridor for the 400 runs down where Black Creek Dr. is now, right? That section looks easy enough to convert to a limited-access highway, but where would it go once it got past Weston? I don't see any corridor that a 6-land highway could run down.
Yes, Black Creek Dr. is in fact designed in a way that allows it to be converted to a freeway easily. It has enough land around the intersections to convert them to interchanges. Past Weston requires some creativity. A tunnel would be a good idea, but there is no way there'll be enough money to do something like this anytime soon.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 02:28 AM   #810
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Originally Posted by KGB View Post


Are you sure we aren't just being very SSC-ish...falsfying and exaggerating data for the purpose of overrating a highway? It is what we do a LOT of here, you know.




KGB
Not at all, I am not familiar with the trends of AADT growth very well, as I am not an expert in this area. I merely saw on Wikipedia the following quote: "The 401 is one of the world's busiest highways, with an estimated Annual Average Daily Traffic (AADT) of over 500,000 in 2006, between the Weston Road and Highway 400 interchanges in Toronto." However, the source it quotes has no such data, and therefore I am skeptical, and guess that this value was made up.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 03:57 AM   #811
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Yes, Black Creek Dr. is in fact designed in a way that allows it to be converted to a freeway easily. It has enough land around the intersections to convert them to interchanges. Past Weston requires some creativity. A tunnel would be a good idea, but there is no way there'll be enough money to do something like this anytime soon.
That's what I figured.

A tunnel would be a good idea, I think... much better than trying to jam a surface highway in there. 'Course it raises the problems of things like ventilation, getting vehicles out of the tunnel, avoiding the Bloor subway, etc, etc.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 04:05 AM   #812
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Originally Posted by kingsdl76 View Post
NYC completely destroys Toronto on every urban level possible.
That's a joke. I wonder why Jane Jacobs snubbed NYC for Toronto then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsdl76 View Post
I also find the nightlife in several larger American cities to be more exciting than Toronto. So maybe Canada doesnt differ from the US as much as you like to think. My second point would be that you cant even compare urban Canada to urban US. There's just so many more large cities in the US. The population in the US is so much larger. The entire country of Canada has a smaller population than California!! I'm sure that you can think of a few US cities that have intrusional highway systems, but thats in large part due to the fact that there's so many large cities in this country to pick from. I could say that its easy to have nice large cities in Canada when you only have 2 cities with more than a million people!...but I wont because I love Canada!!....but I just had to point that fact out to you.
The US obviously has far more large cities than Canada, but have a look through some recent photo threads around here... a good number of these cities are rotting from the inside out. Also, most of these cities have a ridiculous amount of freeways running around and through them.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 05:31 AM   #813
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the question is about the 401 alone with it sheer size, its 14-18 lanes wide in its entire stretch across North Toronto.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 06:06 AM   #814
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That's what I figured.

A tunnel would be a good idea, I think... much better than trying to jam a surface highway in there. 'Course it raises the problems of things like ventilation, getting vehicles out of the tunnel, avoiding the Bloor subway, etc, etc.
The main problem is just the funding. Such a project would be unimaginably expensive, especially in a completely built-up area. Such tunnels do exist around the world, and most of the concerns you raised are manageable, but of course, with considerable costs
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Old October 20th, 2007, 06:28 AM   #815
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That's a joke. I wonder why Jane Jacobs snubbed NYC for Toronto then...



The US obviously has far more large cities than Canada, but have a look through some recent photo threads around here... a good number of these cities are rotting from the inside out. Also, most of these cities have a ridiculous amount of freeways running around and through them.
It kind of drives me crazy that freeways get blamed for urban blight. Yes, sometimes they can cut up neighborhoods, but the urban decline seems to have a lot more to do with North America's fixation on newer and bigger homes than urban freeways.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 12:49 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
Not at all, I am not familiar with the trends of AADT growth very well, as I am not an expert in this area. I merely saw on Wikipedia the following quote: "The 401 is one of the world's busiest highways, with an estimated Annual Average Daily Traffic (AADT) of over 500,000 in 2006, between the Weston Road and Highway 400 interchanges in Toronto." However, the source it quotes has no such data, and therefore I am skeptical, and guess that this value was made up.
Like i said in other topics, Wikipedia stinks as a source, and is full of people like here on SSC, trying to make their country/city/road look better.

AADT growths are surely not 20% in 2 years. Especially not in such great numbers as the 401 AADT.

In the Netherlands, where traffic is considered to grow at a fast rate, it increases about 0 - 4% per year, depending on location.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 05:44 PM   #817
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It kind of drives me crazy that freeways get blamed for urban blight. Yes, sometimes they can cut up neighborhoods, but the urban decline seems to have a lot more to do with North America's fixation on newer and bigger homes than urban freeways.
oh for sure, there are alot of factors. It's a wonderfully complicated science.

Back to the topic at hand... I once sat on the concrete median at the 401 & 400, and I lost count at around a million :P
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Old October 20th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #818
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Damn. Good thing you're alive!
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Old October 20th, 2007, 08:58 PM   #819
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Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
That's a joke. I wonder why Jane Jacobs snubbed NYC for Toronto then...



The US obviously has far more large cities than Canada, but have a look through some recent photo threads around here... a good number of these cities are rotting from the inside out. Also, most of these cities have a ridiculous amount of freeways running around and through them.
No.....thats not a joke. Toronto's great but its nowhere near the city that New York is and I realize thats my opinion and you may not agree and thats fine. As far as Jane Jacobs, wow......I couldnt care less about what she thought...BUT....she actually moved to Canada during the Vietnam era because she was fearful that her sons were going to be drafted. Oh and since you like to look at pics of US cities.....keep looking because you'll find plenty more that are gorgeous and not "rotting from the inside" as you say. By the way, how many cities in the US have you visited?

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Old October 20th, 2007, 09:14 PM   #820
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Don't turn this into a different pissing match. In terms of the shear volume of vehicles on the shear number of freeways Toronto doesn't even come close to La. -- Or that of most US cities to be quite frank. However, your data does indeed agree with the claim that Toronto's 401 is indeed the busiest freeway in North America, and quite likely the world.
Yes, you're right, I dont disagree that the 401 is busier than any 'single' freeway in the LA system. I was just pointing out that there's so much more traffic overall in the LA area.
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