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Old November 10th, 2007, 09:58 PM   #921
Alex Von Königsberg
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It's interesting what units the physical properties of different construction materials (concrete, bricks, etc.) are measured in?

Noob, are using Celsius or Fahrenheit in your daily life?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 11:01 PM   #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
It's interesting what units the physical properties of different construction materials (concrete, bricks, etc.) are measured in?

Noob, are using Celsius or Fahrenheit in your daily life?
You know, I've finally come around on certain aspects of the metric system. I can deal with spending $.86/l on diesel a lot better than $3.25/gal.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 11:04 PM   #923
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That's actually why I don't like metric. And it's scary that we'll be using it one day for that.
how is that scary? I hate converting inches to feet and always remembering that 12 inches equals a foot. It's annoying dividing 5 foot 11 inches because they don't go into 10's.

I honestly hope Imperial disappears. It's influence would diminish quickly within a generation. My parents grew up in imperial Canada, but think only in km's in real life now. They adapted quite easily.

I'm pretty fluent in both (especially temperature and height) but yeah...I hope that one day, all of N/A will be Metric.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 02:17 AM   #924
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Temperature in Canada is almost exclusively provided in degrees Celsius (e.g. weather forecasts).
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Old November 11th, 2007, 02:44 AM   #925
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Temperature in Canada is almost exclusively provided in degrees Celsius (e.g. weather forecasts).
Except water temperature... everybody I know tells the temperature of water in Fahrenheit, but the temperature of the air in Celsius.

Odd mix if you ask me
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Old November 11th, 2007, 04:53 AM   #926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Noob, are using Celsius or Fahrenheit in your daily life?
Celsius.



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Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02 View Post
how is that scary? I hate converting inches to feet and always remembering that 12 inches equals a foot. It's annoying dividing 5 foot 11 inches because they don't go into 10's.

I honestly hope Imperial disappears. It's influence would diminish quickly within a generation. My parents grew up in imperial Canada, but think only in km's in real life now. They adapted quite easily.

I'm pretty fluent in both (especially temperature and height) but yeah...I hope that one day, all of N/A will be Metric.
It's scary because I just can't imagine measuring room sizes, etc. in metres. It's too weird. It's also a pain in the ass.

Grey Towers already pointed out the mish mash we have, and that's as far as I want to see us go.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 06:10 AM   #927
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Noob, I think you realise that ordinary people will not want to give up something they are used to for the sake of the progress. Would you agree that it would be better if the future generations of Canadians use the metric system in all aspects of life? You are selfish, and your egoism will hurt your children and grandchildren, man
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Old November 11th, 2007, 09:17 AM   #928
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It's scary because I just can't imagine measuring room sizes, etc. in metres. It's too weird. It's also a pain in the ass.

Grey Towers already pointed out the mish mash we have, and that's as far as I want to see us go.
Why is it a pain? A pain to deal with numbers that evenly go into powers of 10, as opposed to having the very strange and complicated relationships between the different Imperial numbers? The whole world uses it, so why is it weird? The fact that it's scary to you doesn't mean that it's not better, and while the whole subject is somewhat subjective, the metric system is objectively better, i.e. if you approach the subject in a logical and neutral manner, the metric system is simply better. I live in Canada, but when I get an area in square feet, I always ask what it is in square metres. While I understand that it's because the two of us have been accustomed to different measurements, it is exactly the point - it's a matter of getting used to. So if someone could convince me that the Imperial system is better, I would support its adoption. Until then, all reasonable explanations favour the metric system.

And the solution to the mish mash is converting everything to metric, including civil engineering dimensions.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #929
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Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Noob, I think you realise that ordinary people will not want to give up something they are used to for the sake of the progress. Would you agree that it would be better if the future generations of Canadians use the metric system in all aspects of life? You are selfish, and your egoism will hurt your children and grandchildren, man
LMAO. You act like nobody wants to use the imperial system and that its some plague that needs to be eliminated. It's funny that you mention my "egoism" and that it'll hurt my children. My parents are immigrants and can only use metric. Frankly, it hurts me everytime they use it. Wait, that's not the word. Rather, I find it comical. Room sizes in metres?



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Why is it a pain? A pain to deal with numbers that evenly go into powers of 10, as opposed to having the very strange and complicated relationships between the different Imperial numbers? The whole world uses it, so why is it weird? The fact that it's scary to you doesn't mean that it's not better, and while the whole subject is somewhat subjective, the metric system is objectively better, i.e. if you approach the subject in a logical and neutral manner, the metric system is simply better.
"It's better because the whole world uses it". History is against you.



Quote:
I live in Canada, but when I get an area in square feet, I always ask what it is in square metres. While I understand that it's because the two of us have been accustomed to different measurements, it is exactly the point - it's a matter of getting used to. So if someone could convince me that the Imperial system is better, I would support its adoption. Until then, all reasonable explanations favour the metric system.
So everyone should "get used to" the metric system because our measurements are inferior?



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And the solution to the mish mash is converting everything to metric, including civil engineering dimensions.
Everyone is fine with the way things are. If you don't like it, please move. Or you can wait til everyone starts using "square metres" <== expect that to take a few centuries.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 07:45 PM   #930
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To all: Celsius is not SI...Kelvin is.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 09:47 PM   #931
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The only real viable solution is a hybrid system. Something like the meter being standard, but everyone will still measure in 30 cm "feet". Same with the liter, but people buying 4 l "gallons". A half-liter will be a "pint", and so on and so forth. The only thing that would probably go to the annals of history is the mile, because there really is no need to scale down from a kilometer, other than saying "1/2 km, 250 m" so on and so forth (remember, we like fractions in NA).

The old measurements are never going to die, they're much too ingrained in our culture. They can change, though, to get more in line with the rest of the world, a necessity in this era of globalization.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 09:51 PM   #932
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Quote:
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To all: Celsius is not SI...Kelvin is.
The fraction is the same, but it is shifted to make more sense in everyday life (i.e. freezing and boiling points). In my area of study, we use Kelvins mainly to predicts the behaviour of electrons and holes in semiconductor materials
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Old November 12th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #933
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The only real viable solution is a hybrid system. Something like the meter being standard, but everyone will still measure in 30 cm "feet". Same with the liter, but people buying 4 l "gallons". A half-liter will be a "pint", and so on and so forth. The only thing that would probably go to the annals of history is the mile, because there really is no need to scale down from a kilometer, other than saying "1/2 km, 250 m" so on and so forth (remember, we like fractions in NA).
I think I will be right if I say that the way we think is shaped by the very measurement system we are accustomed to. People all over the world (except the USA and UK to some extent) are not only using the decimal system, they are thinking in decimal system. Most of the units use either thousands of a whole unit (such as litre, kilogramme, and kilometre). I personally think in litres, metres and kilogrammes. For instance, for me 340g is 0.34kg, and so on. At the same time, if the length is shorter than a metre, I tend to think in decimetres (10cm, 20cm, etc). In Russia, most of the liquids are sold either in 330mL, 500mL, 1L or the whole multiples of a litre. Now, after 7 years, when I think of a pound, I still think of it as 454g, and the quarter is 946mL, and this doesn't seem to change for me. I was glad to see that Canada is actually using the hard metric because I expected to see a soft metric at best. I think that your proposal would work just fine because not a whole lot of people will notice a significant difference between 946mL and a litre, or between 3.78L and 4L, or between 454g and 500g

P.S. This discussion reminds me of the novel "1984" by Orwell where the main character tries to explain to an old-timer that half-litre is just as good as the old pint. This novel just doesn't help metrication if you ask me
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Old November 12th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #934
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Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
I think I will be right if I say that the way we think is shaped by the very measurement system we are accustomed to. People all over the world (except the USA and UK to some extent) are not only using the decimal system, they are thinking in decimal system. Most of the units use either thousands of a whole unit (such as litre, kilogramme, and kilometre). I personally think in litres, metres and kilogrammes. For instance, for me 340g is 0.34kg, and so on. At the same time, if the length is shorter than a metre, I tend to think in decimetres (10cm, 20cm, etc). In Russia, most of the liquids are sold either in 330mL, 500mL, 1L or the whole multiples of a litre. Now, after 7 years, when I think of a pound, I still think of it as 454g, and the quarter is 946mL, and this doesn't seem to change for me. I was glad to see that Canada is actually using the hard metric because I expected to see a soft metric at best. I think that your proposal would work just fine because not a whole lot of people will notice a significant difference between 946mL and a litre, or between 3.78L and 4L, or between 454g and 500g

P.S. This discussion reminds me of the novel "1984" by Orwell where the main character tries to explain to an old-timer that half-litre is just as good as the old pint. This novel just doesn't help metrication if you ask me
Kinda the measurement version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, eh? I'd agree with you on that one. I think the funniest part about the whole thing is that completely being lost when it comes to the metric system is something that crosses all spectra in the US at least. I remember traveling to Mexico with a friend of mine who has been all over the world for much longer periods than me, and I was still having to translate kilometers to miles and kilograms to pounds for her .

My favorite was when we went to the store and she went to buy meat, and I was just happening to pass by when she said she wanted 600 g. I kinda shook my head and said we'll take 150 g. She said something like "600 g isn't that much". I simply replied, "we're here for only two more days. I don't think we need a pound and a half of ham." She kind of blinked for a second, then said "yeah, you're right" and moved on. She speaks a ton better Spanish than I do, though.

While I prefer US standard measurements since I'm familiar with them, I knew that knowing metric was as important as learning another language, especially since it is a truly global language, in a sense. But like you, but opposite, a kilo is about 2 lbs, a liter is a little more than a quart, and a meter is a little more than a yard. And the 1600 m run in the Olympics is really a mile. On the other hand, the only way I'll ever know an ounce is as 28 g, and if you don't know why, I'm not telling...

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Old November 12th, 2007, 11:41 PM   #935
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On the other hand, the only way I'll ever know an ounce is as 28 g, and if you don't know why, I'm not telling...
Man, this ounce still confuses me more than the rest of the Imperial system Is it a measurement of weight or volume, or both? I have no idea why you are measuring an ounce in terms of grammes, but it would be interesting to find out.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 12:22 AM   #936
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Man, this ounce still confuses me more than the rest of the Imperial system Is it a measurement of weight or volume, or both? I have no idea why you are measuring an ounce in terms of grammes, but it would be interesting to find out.
Both. There is the dry ounce, of which 16 makes a pound, and there is the fluid ounce, of which 8 makes a cup, 16 makes a pint (20 in the UK), and 128 makes a US gallon (160 in the UK). To confuse things further, a US fluid ounce is larger than an Imperial fluid ounce, though our gallon is smaller!

For the latter, chalk it up to the knowledge gained during youthful indiscretion
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Old November 13th, 2007, 07:02 AM   #937
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LMAO. You act like nobody wants to use the imperial system and that its some plague that needs to be eliminated. It's funny that you mention my "egoism" and that it'll hurt my children. My parents are immigrants and can only use metric. Frankly, it hurts me everytime they use it. Wait, that's not the word. Rather, I find it comical. Room sizes in metres?
What's so funny? All people in the world use square metres, except in the US, UK, and to a large extent in Canada. It may not be something that you are used to, but I really don't see what's comical.



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"It's better because the whole world uses it". History is against you.
Have I ever said that that's the reason? I said that that's part of the reason (standardization is always a good thing), and of course, a large part of the world did convert to the metric system from other systems, including the Imperial one. But the main reason is that it is simply more reasonable to know a very small subset of units, and being able to express anything using prefixes/suffixes based on the number system used by humans on an everyday basis, and perform seemingly complex calculations very quickly and efficiently, instead of dealing with arbitrarily chosen fractions, parts, units, etc. Even a person most proficient with the Imperial system will have major trouble doing any meaningful computations using the Imperial system, whereas even a grade 3 student will be able to perform almost any conversion using the metric system. That, to me, is objectively better, more efficient, and more modern.



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So everyone should "get used to" the metric system because our measurements are inferior?
Yes, the Imperial system is inferior. It may have certain small advantages to some people, but as I've shown, and can be shown even better by people who know more than me about this subject, metric is a much more logical and universal system.



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Everyone is fine with the way things are. If you don't like it, please move. Or you can wait til everyone starts using "square metres" <== expect that to take a few centuries.
That's what I really don't like - when people send me somewhere else. The fact that I don't like certain things about the place I live doesn't mean that I should move elsewhere. A lot of people (especially recent immigrants and younger educated people) generally are not quite fine with the way things are, but luckily Canada is moving in the right direction. And no, people will start using square metres much sooner than you think, you'll be surprised And again, I don't see what's funny in measuring area in units that everyone else in the world uses. In fact, I don't find square feet funny - inefficient maybe, but I don't see how a unit can be comical. To you, a house is 800 sqft, and to me it is 75 sqm. As hard as I try, this just doesn't make me laugh
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Old November 13th, 2007, 07:09 AM   #938
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The fraction is the same, but it is shifted to make more sense in everyday life (i.e. freezing and boiling points). In my area of study, we use Kelvins mainly to predicts the behaviour of electrons and holes in semiconductor materials
Man I just had to comment on this! I have this exact course in university right now, and I am not crazy about drawing all of those energy band diagrams What is your field?
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Old November 13th, 2007, 07:39 AM   #939
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Guys, this is the thread about Ontario freeways, not the metric system.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 11:26 PM   #940
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RHVP to open Saturday morning

HAMILTON - We are now just hours away from the long-awaited opening of the Red Hill Valley Parkway.

Northbound lanes will open Saturday morning at 8 o'clock with the southbound lanes to follow.

The ramp from the Niagara-bound QEW to the Parkway will not open for another year or so.

The Ministry of Transportation is responsible for the completion of that interchange and the obvious hamper there has the delicate balance between working on the interchange and not causing massive traffic delays for QEW commuters from lane restrictions.
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