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Old October 25th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #1761
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Logistics, funding, bang for the buck, mobility, weather conditions for concrete pours? Not sure. Is pouring on-site really that much better than pouring at one facility and transporting it to where you want it? Everything is made of concrete in the end right? Is the shape that much different? Does cast in place save more lives?
Theres a reason ever other metro region in North America chooses to go with cast-in-place barriers. They're simply better than pre-cast in every possible way. With that being said, why choose the lesser of the two? I'm convinced metro Vancouver still chooses to go with the old style of barriers is due to cost, convenience, and plain idiocy. If the new HWY 1 Gateway program is supposed to stimulate the economy by providing construction jobs, why not go with cast-in-place barriers? The creation of them creates more jobs (cement trucks, pouring, rebar workers, etc.) compared to being processed at a plant.

To answer your question about the shape, overall yes there is a huge difference. There is no denying that cast-in-place barriers are more liked by highway enthusiasts. They're simply more aesthetically pleasing to the eye. The streamlined look, the lack of holes (again, only in BC do you see 2 holes in each jersey barrier. yes I'm aware they're there so the barriers can be lifted by a machine, but many other places use jersey barriers without hoels so it is possible. and frankly the 2 holes look very ugly). The pre-cast jersey barriers Vancouver uses look so... temporary. They shape, the holes, and the large spaces in between each linked barrier are not a good look. Compare our center barriers to those of Seattle's I-5 in the Everett area and you'll see the difference is huge.

As for saving lives, I can't even count how many times I've seen cars in the lower mainland drive right through our pre-cast center barriers and into the on-coming lane. Its quite scary. I'd much rather have that car hit a cast-in-place barrier and be brought to a stop either immediately or screeching along and stopping due to friction. A perfect example of how incapable our center pre-cast barriers are of stopping cars is at the southbound foot of the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge. They've actually had to fabricate a steel girder across a portion of interlocking pre-cast jersey barriers because cars keeping running into that spot and crashing right through. Thats just one example, there are many.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #1762
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Originally Posted by dibble zee View Post
Theres a reason ever other metro region in North America chooses to go with cast-in-place barriers. They're simply better than pre-cast in every possible way. With that being said, why choose the lesser of the two? I'm convinced metro Vancouver still chooses to go with the old style of barriers is due to cost, convenience, and plain idiocy. If the new HWY 1 Gateway program is supposed to stimulate the economy by providing construction jobs, why not go with cast-in-place barriers? The creation of them creates more jobs (cement trucks, pouring, rebar workers, etc.) compared to being processed at a plant.

To answer your question about the shape, overall yes there is a huge difference. There is no denying that cast-in-place barriers are more liked by highway enthusiasts. They're simply more aesthetically pleasing to the eye. The streamlined look, the lack of holes (again, only in BC do you see 2 holes in each jersey barrier. yes I'm aware they're there so the barriers can be lifted by a machine, but many other places use jersey barriers without hoels so it is possible. and frankly the 2 holes look very ugly). The pre-cast jersey barriers Vancouver uses look so... temporary. They shape, the holes, and the large spaces in between each linked barrier are not a good look. Compare our center barriers to those of Seattle's I-5 in the Everett area and you'll see the difference is huge.

As for saving lives, I can't even count how many times I've seen cars in the lower mainland drive right through our pre-cast center barriers and into the on-coming lane. Its quite scary. I'd much rather have that car hit a cast-in-place barrier and be brought to a stop either immediately or screeching along and stopping due to friction. A perfect example of how incapable our center pre-cast barriers are of stopping cars is at the southbound foot of the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge. They've actually had to fabricate a steel girder across a portion of interlocking pre-cast jersey barriers because cars keeping running into that spot and crashing right through. Thats just one example, there are many.
Concrete that is pre-cast (ie. not cast in place) is always superior to cast in place since the concrete can be cast and cured in climate controlled environment. Making good concrete is a finicky science, and we are seeing more and more pre-cast concrete components being built across the Country.

Even, Ontario uses pre-cast barriers on its freeways in some applications:


FWIW, I do agree that pre-cast are ugly.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 02:31 AM   #1763
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Concrete that is pre-cast (ie. not cast in place) is always superior to cast in place since the concrete can be cast and cured in climate controlled environment. Making good concrete is a finicky science, and we are seeing more and more pre-cast concrete components being built across the Country.

Even, Ontario uses pre-cast barriers on its freeways in some applications:


FWIW, I do agree that pre-cast are ugly.
The problem isn't the material itself, its the way our jersey barriers are connected. The hook-and-eye interlocking system breaks easily. I know other pre-cast jersey barriers with more intricate insides exist but we refuse to use them.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 04:26 AM   #1764
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Originally Posted by dibble zee View Post
As for saving lives, I can't even count how many times I've seen cars in the lower mainland drive right through our pre-cast center barriers and into the on-coming lane. Its quite scary. I'd much rather have that car hit a cast-in-place barrier and be brought to a stop either immediately or screeching along and stopping due to friction. A perfect example of how incapable our center pre-cast barriers are of stopping cars is at the southbound foot of the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge. They've actually had to fabricate a steel girder across a portion of interlocking pre-cast jersey barriers because cars keeping running into that spot and crashing right through. Thats just one example, there are many.
That's news to me, and I used to live in the Lower Mainland. The City of North Vancouver to be exact. The only incident I know of, was the van load of East Indians.

Whereabouts at the Inworkers Memorial Bridge would I be looking, as I can't find said steel girder (using Google Street View).
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Old October 26th, 2010, 05:34 AM   #1765
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That's news to me, and I used to live in the Lower Mainland. The City of North Vancouver to be exact. The only incident I know of, was the van load of East Indians.

Whereabouts at the Inworkers Memorial Bridge would I be looking, as I can't find said steel girder (using Google Street View).
The addition is farely recent and the google street view hasn't been updated in a while. You'll have to see it in person.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 07:44 AM   #1766
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As for saving lives, I can't even count how many times I've seen cars in the lower mainland drive right through our pre-cast center barriers and into the on-coming lane. Its quite scary. I'd much rather have that car hit a cast-in-place barrier and be brought to a stop either immediately or screeching along and stopping due to friction. A perfect example of how incapable our center pre-cast barriers are of stopping cars is at the southbound foot of the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge. They've actually had to fabricate a steel girder across a portion of interlocking pre-cast jersey barriers because cars keeping running into that spot and crashing right through. Thats just one example, there are many.
I am sorry, but I am calling bull shit on this, I have lived my entire life in the lower mainland, been driving almost every day for the last 10 years and I have never seen an accident where a vehicle has gone right through the barriers and crossed onto the other side of the highway, and this includes years of accidents I have seen at the base of SFU on Gaglardi (the famous huge curve at the bottom of a really steep hill, which many drivers and even the odd bus seem to slam into every year due to poor driving conditions). I have seen them pushed about a foot outwards a few times, and this is usually only when a larger vehicle hits them, but of course this still puts them being pushed only a little into the median, still several feet from an oncoming lane.

Maybe that is why they save lives, because they actually allow the slightest give on the crashing vehicle, absorbing some of the energy, instead of acting as if it were a pillar on a building.

I have never seen anyone so obsessed about barriers. Vancouver highways are not the best in the world, but they are no where near as bad as people like dibble zee make them (what is up with SSC and all the anti-Vancouver Vancouverites? It is too bad all of the Vancouver forum members who are rational and talk about both the pros and cons are on SSP, because despite its problems, which all cities have, Metro-Vancouver is an amazing city of only having 2.3 million residents) As for the highways, we are currently having major renovations done on the entire #1 stretch through Metro-Vancouver (including several rapid bus and HOV only ramps / features), the 91 just had 2 interchanges re done as well, the 99 is adding a new interchange, the SFPR is being built, the GEB/GEW was just completed a year ago, etc... So there have actually been many impressive new highway projects that have just been built or are currently underway in Metro-Vancouver. Not to mention it has been announced that stage two of our highway / transit renovations, Gateway 2, is soon to be unveiled. I don't know what more you could ask for?

As for BC in general, we are doing a pretty good job in upgrading our highways currently, especially considering we are a province several times larger than the UK, consisting of numerous mountain ranges, consistently changing bed rock, valleys, rivers, inlets, etc... with a population of only 4.5 million. Highways are a provincial jurisdiction in Canada, not federal. It is a lot easier and cheeper to build highways in southern Ontario and across the Prairies than it is in BC. So i think we do pretty well considering our limitations.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #1767
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I am sorry, but I am calling bull shit on this, I have lived my entire life in the lower mainland, been driving almost every day for the last 10 years and I have never seen an accident where a vehicle has gone right through the barriers and crossed onto the other side of the highway, and this includes years of accidents I have seen at the base of SFU on Gaglardi (the famous huge curve at the bottom of a really steep hill, which many drivers and even the odd bus seem to slam into every year due to poor driving conditions). I have seen them pushed about a foot outwards a few times, and this is usually only when a larger vehicle hits them, but of course this still puts them being pushed only a little into the median, still several feet from an oncoming lane.

Maybe that is why they save lives, because they actually allow the slightest give on the crashing vehicle, absorbing some of the energy, instead of acting as if it were a pillar on a building.

I have never seen anyone so obsessed about barriers. Vancouver highways are not the best in the world, but they are no where near as bad as people like dibble zee make them (what is up with SSC and all the anti-Vancouver Vancouverites? It is too bad all of the Vancouver forum members who are rational and talk about both the pros and cons are on SSP, because despite its problems, which all cities have, Metro-Vancouver is an amazing city of only having 2.3 million residents) As for the highways, we are currently having major renovations done on the entire #1 stretch through Metro-Vancouver (including several rapid bus and HOV only ramps / features), the 91 just had 2 interchanges re done as well, the 99 is adding a new interchange, the SFPR is being built, the GEB/GEW was just completed a year ago, etc... So there have actually been many impressive new highway projects that have just been built or are currently underway in Metro-Vancouver. Not to mention it has been announced that stage two of our highway / transit renovations, Gateway 2, is soon to be unveiled. I don't know what more you could ask for?

As for BC in general, we are doing a pretty good job in upgrading our highways currently, especially considering we are a province several times larger than the UK, consisting of numerous mountain ranges, consistently changing bed rock, valleys, rivers, inlets, etc... with a population of only 4.5 million. Highways are a provincial jurisdiction in Canada, not federal. It is a lot easier and cheeper to build highways in southern Ontario and across the Prairies than it is in BC. So i think we do pretty well considering our limitations.
LOL have fun on SSP. Its basically a fascist regime that doesn't allow any criticism of anything. Thats the reason you'll only find Vancouverites with rose colored glasses on there. They probably buy into the whole "best place on earth" motto too

Though there are many "projects" underway in metro Van, Gateway is the only one that actually increases capacity. All of the construction being done to HWY 99 and HWY 91 are just interchanges, adding to congestion. They still refuse to increase the capacity of those highways SFPR is basically a new road. It will have some interchanges and some stop light intersections. It isn't impressive by any means. New roads get built in Canada all the time, why should the SFPR receive any extra exposure?

The highways in BC are an overall mess. Don't worry guys, I'm planning a huge picture dump soon (in the next coming week) that will highlight the short falls of BC's highway network. Poorly designed interchanges, crumbling barriers, and a lack of continuity between highways... We've got it all!
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Old October 27th, 2010, 02:33 AM   #1768
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The highways in BC are an overall mess. Don't worry guys, I'm planning a huge picture dump soon (in the next coming week) that will highlight the short falls of BC's highway network. Poorly designed interchanges, crumbling barriers, and a lack of continuity between highways... We've got it all!
Pictures might actually help, or not, your argument. Looking forward to them. We have our share of highway infrastructure flaws, I don't think there are many people that would argue that. But whether they are unique problems within Canada, or the world is the real question. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone from another city claim they have it worse... We have to keep in mind, Lower Mainland residents have to contend with many river crossings.... and in my mind, most of our problems are related to this. Also, highways are for getting cars and trucks from A to B safely, and in good time. So the other question I'd ask is, do our roads accomplish this as well as in other places? A three lane bridge that should be six is one thing, but some crumbling barriers??? Seriously.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 03:21 AM   #1769
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I was reading up on Calgary's new ring road and they are using Jersey barriers as well, so it seems we are not the only area to use them....and last time I checked Calgary was a metro in North America.

Also, one can produce select photos of poor interchanges and crumbling barriers from almost anywhere in the world, especially along rural arteries. If you want to see crumbling highways, you should go to the North East of the US. Wasn't there just a major interstate bridge that fell down in the US a few years ago....I call that crumbling highways, not to mention the overpass that fell down in Quebec a few years ago as well.

Also, SSP is far from having rose colored glasses of Vancouver, we have many debates about what is poor and what is good in Metro-Vancouver, including what works and what doesn't in our road network. I am guessing your negative attitude towards SSP suggest you may have been banned from it for being a troll.

I will never argue that Vancouver has a fantastic freeway network, but it is far from the state you place it in.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 03:46 AM   #1770
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Pictures might actually help, or not, your argument. Looking forward to them. We have our share of highway infrastructure flaws, I don't think there are many people that would argue that. But whether they are unique problems within Canada, or the world is the real question. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone from another city claim they have it worse... We have to keep in mind, Lower Mainland residents have to contend with many river crossings.... and in my mind, most of our problems are related to this. Also, highways are for getting cars and trucks from A to B safely, and in good time. So the other question I'd ask is, do our roads accomplish this as well as in other places? A three lane bridge that should be six is one thing, but some crumbling barriers??? Seriously.
I'm guessing you're talking about the Lions Gate Bridge? Yeah thats a lost cause. I've given up on changes for major components of our roads like the Lions Gate because I know they'll never happen, not in my life time anyway. But the crumbling barrier remark is true and can be remedied. The BC MoT just refuses to do it. And its not some its the majority of our highway barriers. Highway enthusiasts will agree that highways have aesthetic values. I find that out east, and south of the border a lot more emphasis is put into making the highway infrastructure look nice. Our highways... look like crap.

Last edited by dibble zee; October 27th, 2010 at 04:09 AM.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 05:48 AM   #1771
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_IF_, BC has bad highways, its because of reasons like traffic signals at 72 Ave in Delta, not because of pre-cast barriers.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 06:40 PM   #1772
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I think as long as there's a median, that's +1 over not having a median.

Steel girders, pre-cast barriers, Jersey Barriers. Around here something called an Ontario Tall Wall is used. It isn't reinforced like a Jersey Barrier, but it isn't really precast either.


(That's a photo I took of Highway 401 eastbound in London between Highway 402 and Wellington Road.)
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Old October 28th, 2010, 08:47 AM   #1773
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Highway 16 (still in BC near Alberta)

Highway 93 (AKA Icefield Parkway in Alberta)


BC Highway 1 heading West towards Kamloops, BC (only 1 lane in each direction in some parts! But being expanded to two...)




Highway 99 (AKA Sea to Sky highway towards Whistler)

Lavish in some parts

But the old highway/1 lane in each direction pops up from time to time


Highway 99 continues towards Lillooet, where the road turns horrible. We drove a luxury sports sedan and ended up having to go through mud, cross single lane wooden bridges, and drive off-road.
After Lillooet, we continued down BC Highway 12



Highway 12 merges into Highway 1 in Lytton, BC. The road in the background is still highway 12 before it merges.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 07:32 AM   #1774
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Awesome photos zivan56! Thanks for sharing!

Have you ever seen this video of the Sea-To-Sky Highway?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFjr239-UtA

Absolutely beautiful drive.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 02:07 AM   #1775
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Fantastic video, thanks for posting!

I love the new Sea to Sky Highway and i agree it is well designed for its current and forecasted traffic loads. It also shows the difficult terrain we have in much of BC for building highways (compared to much of the Prairies and the populated regions of Ontario)

Also Zivan56, thanks for posting those photos.

That 1 lane stretch of #12 near Lillooet is something else! In the photo you can see many chunks of rock that have fallen down. That stretch of road is built along a very steep canyon wall (the Fraser Canyon). Don't worry though, it is a very rural area and that "highway" does not service any major centers, only a couple towns with low populations (Lillooet is the main town that road services, and its population is only 2, 324 people) Also, Lillooet is serviced by the 99 highway to the west. The town of Lillooet itself is located in the base of the Fraser Canyon. A very interesting place to visit in the summer if you love heat.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 04:26 AM   #1776
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I agree. BC's highways aren't that bad given the topography, and the shear remoteness of a lot of the province.

For example, google California Highway 173 if you want to see a fine example of an awful, awful highway.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 05:21 AM   #1777
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In the spirit of shameless self promotion, I give you, the 401:

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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:29 AM   #1778
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I give you, the 401
Speaking of the 401, I recently posted this in the AADT thread. May as well stick it here since it applies to Canadian highways.

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Highest AADT in Canada is 431,900 along Highway 401. (As of 2006)

Photo of the segment:
image hosted on flickr


This section of highway also gets nearly 505,000 during the summer months (SAWDT).

Source: http://www.raqsb.mto.gov.on.ca/techp...01988-2006.pdf (page 595)
Busiest highway in the world? I vote yes. Haven't seen a stat that tops 432k AADT.

Also check out this diagram for Interstate 10's planned 24 lane cross section in Phoenix.


The 401, with a max width of "only" 18 lanes, will look puny if this is built. But will it remain the busiest?
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:41 AM   #1779
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I think the Katy Freeway (I-10 in Houston) already competes with the 401 for the title of "largest", but in terms of traffic volumes, for now, the 401 is still the busiest, while the Santa Monica (interestingly, also I-10) is the runner up.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 12:24 PM   #1780
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The busiest freeway in the U.S. is the I-405 near Seal Beach with 395,000 vehicles per day. However, some Houston freeways are gaining ground, with US 59 having 330,000 vehicles per day. The I-10 in Phoenix is forecast to grow to 430,000 vehicles per day.

However, nothing beats the projected 2020 volume of the I-635 in Dallas; 500,000 vehicles per day.

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When the LBJ Freeway opened in 1969 it was designed to hold about 180,000 vehicles per day. Current traffic counts put that number at 270,000 vehicles per day. Based on today's traffic count, by 2020 demand will increase by 500,000 vehicles per day traveling this road.
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