daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 13th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #1821
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 856

I hear they are building the Ring Road and should be completed between 2085 to 2095. For good old London town that light speed.
Kidding aside you can take KW. One of the things that makes London so livable and attractive city it is is that it didn't rip down huge inner city neighbourhoods to build a freeway. yes it is much faster to get around KW but the result is a city with a weak downtown and an endless sprawl.
Detroit managed to build much of it's inner city freeway network like the Fisher freeway but riping up huge areas of the city. After the 60s riots the threw out thousands of people in a complete community to build it. needless to say the entire area they destroyed was black. The divided the community hoping they would leave the inner city. The entire inner city network went thru historic black areas in the name of progress..
It is no different than Toronto putting an at grade freeway from the Gardiner all the way up Spadina to U of T to get rid of the Chinese population.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 16th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #1822
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

I agree, and London is a pretty quickly growing municipality. If K/W and Cambridge are outpacing it I bet it has more to do with two things:
a) proximity to Toronto
b) Research in Motion.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2010, 03:57 AM   #1823
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post
I agree, and London is a pretty quickly growing municipality. If K/W and Cambridge are outpacing it I bet it has more to do with two things:
a) proximity to Toronto
b) Research in Motion.
London's growth rate is about 1% a year, pretty middle of the roads for an average Canadian city. K-W is growing like mad because of those points, not to mention land within Greater Toronto is much more expensive and less plentiful than it used to be. Many people who want to settle in the GTA/GGH will pick somewhere in Waterloo Region as their second choice.

If you're living in the north end of the city (where most of the new developments are taking place), it will take you upwards of 30 minutes to reach Highway 401, depending on your location and traffic congestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Detroit managed to build much of it's inner city freeway network like the Fisher freeway but riping up huge areas of the city. After the 60s riots the threw out thousands of people in a complete community to build it. needless to say the entire area they destroyed was black. The divided the community hoping they would leave the inner city. The entire inner city network went thru historic black areas in the name of progress..
It is no different than Toronto putting an at grade freeway from the Gardiner all the way up Spadina to U of T to get rid of the Chinese population.
Many freeways in Detroit mirror that of the Spidina Expressway dilemma in Toronto, except there was no Jane Jacobs to stop them.

For those who don't know who she was, Jane Jacobs was an anti-expressway enthusiast who laid down in front of bulldozers to prevent further construction of the Spidina Expressway (now Allen Road) in Toronto. You can read more about her Here.

Personally, I'm grateful the Spidina Expressway wasn't built, but a Highway 400 extension to the Gardiner would have been nice. It would have taken the canceled Spidina's load and would help alleviate the congestion we see today on the surface streets, the Don Valley Parkway and Highway 427.
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff

Last edited by Haljackey; November 16th, 2010 at 04:06 AM.
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #1824
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,844
Likes (Received): 18129

Clear vision for Gardiner; Architect suggests transforming expressway with glass enclosure
15 November 2010
The Toronto Star



Picture a long, transparent worm with tentacles filled with cars, and you begin to get a sense of what architectural designer Peter Michno has in mind for the Gardiner Expressway.

He envisions a vented, glass-covered tube that would run seven kilometres, end to end, of the elevated section, from Dufferin St. east to the Don Valley Parkway. Tolls would fund the construction costs, and beneath the roadway would be new green space and pedestrian walkways.

Sound far-fetched? Maybe, maybe not.

Michno's idea has the support of a prominent principal architect in the city, and the president of the Toronto Association of Business Improvement Areas (TABIA).

Exactly what to do with the Gardiner has been a hot topic for years. Officially called the Frederick G. Gardiner Expressway, it was completed in 1965 with much fanfare. But today it's caught between visions of the past and future.

Supporters say it's a key component for Toronto's downtown, feeding 200,000 cars per day into the downtown core from the west, and 120,000 cars per day east of Lower Jarvis St.

Critics argue it's an eyesore that divides the city from the waterfront, and that annual maintenance costs of about $3 million to $4 million could be better spent elsewhere.

Toronto Mayor David Miller and Waterfront Toronto officials support a plan to tear down a section of the Gardiner just east of Jarvis for about $300 million. An environmental assessment is currently underway, with no decision expected before early next year.

But Michno takes issue with teardown schemes.

He argues that demolition is shortsighted because the city and region depend so heavily on the roadway.

So, he and those who support his proposal want to ensure it's on the table when the city ponders the next steps.

Waterfront Toronto spokesperson Michelle Noble said alternatives will be explored as part of the environmental assessment next year, and it's not too late for new ideas.

But why a giant tube?

First, it would reduce the Gardiner's ugliness and noise, argues Michno, whose resume includes a 50-storey tower for Dubai University.

A glass tunnel would improve the expressway's esthetics and significantly reduce vehicle sound, he argues. Think of it as a giant artwork.

"There are more and more people living near (the Gardiner). They have to look at this not-so-great looking structure,'' Michno says.

Second, the covered design would keep snow and rain from accumulating on the roadway, leading to huge savings in maintenance.

Third, says Stan Downey, a Toronto architect, it would improve the road's underbelly.

"A good deal of the ugliness is the underside,'' says Downey, pointing to Michno's design renderings depicting vibrant, tree-lined pedestrian areas underneath.

"You brighten that up, and you improve the esthetics,'' says Downey, whose firm Stanford Downey Architects won an award for the iconic 1 King St. W. building.

The tube would have rounded panels on the bottom that sit on "graceful,'' colourful supports, says Michael Comstock, president of the Toronto Association of BIAs.

It's not the first bright idea brought forward to remake the Gardiner. During the municipal election campaign, mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti proposed converting it into a corridor for commuter trains on one side, with lanes for cyclists, pedestrians and skaters down the other.

Michno, who believes it would take about three to four years to build his tube, can't nail down an exact dollar figure, but says road tolls would be a logical option to finance the project.

"The toll road is a great payout over a long period of time,'' says Comstock.

Wouldn't tolls simply cause motorists to flee the Gardiner and further clog the parallel Lake Shore Blvd.?

Michno doesn't think so. Because his plan calls for fewer ramps, the Lake Shore route would become less of a "service road'' than it is now, he argues. "That should improve the flow of traffic,'' he says.

Michael Comstock, right, head of the Toronto Association of BIAs, is on board with architect Peter Michno's concept for the Gardiner. Turning the Gardiner into a giant, glass tube could elevate it from ugly and noisy to a form of artwork. An artist's conception of an enclosed Gardiner roadway and ramps.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #1825
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,568
Likes (Received): 19354

They did that somewhere recently, but I can't recall where, maybe China. I'm not sure if it is the best option, it pronounces the freeway structure even more than it already is, but it is much better than those horrible plans to convert it into a boulevard with traffic lights.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2010, 01:20 AM   #1826
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
London's growth rate is about 1% a year, pretty middle of the roads for an average Canadian city. K-W is growing like mad because of those points, not to mention land within Greater Toronto is much more expensive and less plentiful than it used to be. Many people who want to settle in the GTA/GGH will pick somewhere in Waterloo Region as their second choice.
Unless growth has drastically stagnated during the most recent reporting period (the next census count is in 2011), London's growth is about 4.7% per year. Slightly below the provincial average of 6.6%, but respectable for a city outside of the GTA and Ottawa.

Check it out here:
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...dex.cfm?Lang=E

Kitchener/Waterloo and Cambridge's growth is higher than that by percentage, however it should be noted that these cities have lower populations so the percentage value would be inflated over the gross number of new inhabitants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
If you're living in the north end of the city (where most of the new developments are taking place), it will take you upwards of 30 minutes to reach Highway 401, depending on your location and traffic congestion.
I went to Western for four years, and whenever I returned from my parents house northeast of Toronto, it always felt like the Wellington Road exit from the 401 was the halfway point in the journey to Western and Platts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
Many freeways in Detroit mirror that of the Spidina Expressway dilemma in Toronto, except there was no Jane Jacobs to stop them.

For those who don't know who she was, Jane Jacobs was an anti-expressway enthusiast who laid down in front of bulldozers to prevent further construction of the Spidina Expressway (now Allen Road) in Toronto. You can read more about her Here.
A few years ago I read Death and Life[...]. Jacob's was not formally educated in planning, and that fact reads through in her text, however she was a good writer, and spoke of cities in a passionate voice. Subscribe to her belief's or not, she has a perspective that is worth reading.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2010, 01:33 AM   #1827
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

sonysnob: I just wanted to quickly point out that that 4.7% was not over one year, but between census periods (5 years). If London and Ontario grew 4.7 and 6.6% per year, this would be a pretty crowded place by 2020.

I've read a lot of work by Jane Jacobs, and I have to agree that she has a very interesting perspective. Since she isn't a planner, her take on things is different, and quite an eye-opener.


As for the Gardiner, just refurbish it and repaint the dam thing. That way it won't cost an arm and a leg and won't look like crap. I could see increased lighting under it and artwork on the support pillars.
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2010, 02:19 AM   #1828
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

^ Yeah, you are right, I had never done the math before looking at % population change.

The Gardiner needs a long term replacement strategy. The highway has already been rehabilitated pretty extensively over the years. Modern structures generally have a shelf life of 50 to 75 years. The Gardiner is between 45 and 50 years old, depending upon the section, timing of the 'do nothing' option is quickly running out.

The other problem that affects the Gardiner is that it is located in a particularly saline environment. Because the Lakeshore runs underneath of it for so much of its length, the expressway's salt load is double. Not only does the highway get salted from up top, but also from underneath.

Salt technology has gotten better with the advent of pre-wet salt and liquid de-icers however, both of these technologies inevitable render additional airborne salt which of course finds its way to bridge piers and the underside of the Gardiner's bridge deck.

Further, concrete and steel technology has improved since the Gardiner was built. For example, the use of plastic chairs to sit rebar in a concrete structure during a poor is a relatively new invention, as are some of the epoxies that are used to coat rebar to protect from corrosion. Simply rehabilitating the structure doesn't allow structural engineers to take full advantage of these new technologies.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #1829
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

New style of partial gantry overhead signage on the 407:

__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #1830
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

I think the new signs on the 407 look pretty good. I like how they try to mimic Ontario's signing but have their own unique characteristics.
-I bet the 407 would make a more money if they raised their speed limit from 100 to 110 or 120, even if it's only in some rural sections. That would attract more drivers to get the kind of "rush" they're looking for but can't do (legally) on any Ontario highway.


As for the Gardiner, there are so many ideas what to do with it these days that it's nuts. I like one of the more extreme ideas: "the Toronto viaduct", but ultimately a tunnel would be the best option. However both of these are insanely expensive and it's unlikely it will get the kind of financial contributions from upper forms of government like the Big Digs in Madrid or Boston did.

Speaking of the Gardiner, here's a good video of what it looks like on the roadway. Below the elevated portion the highway could use some touch-ups, however.

__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2010, 02:40 AM   #1831
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
I think the new signs on the 407 look pretty good. I like how they try to mimic Ontario's signing but have their own unique characteristics.
-I bet the 407 would make a more money if they raised their speed limit from 100 to 110 or 120, even if it's only in some rural sections. That would attract more drivers to get the kind of "rush" they're looking for but can't do (legally) on any Ontario highway.


As for the Gardiner, there are so many ideas what to do with it these days that it's nuts. I like one of the more extreme ideas: "the Toronto viaduct", but ultimately a tunnel would be the best option. However both of these are insanely expensive and it's unlikely it will get the kind of financial contributions from upper forms of government like the Big Digs in Madrid or Boston did.

Speaking of the Gardiner, here's a good video of what it looks like on the roadway. Below the elevated portion the highway could use some touch-ups, however.
That Toronto viaduct site has been around forever. The webmaster is fairly quiet (you don't see him participating on furoms for example), but that site has been updated almost as much as OntHighways. The viaduct is an interesting idea if nothing else.

I think one of the biggest problems with Toronto right now, is there seems to be a fear of doing anything. No ideas brought to the table seem to be taken seriously.

Something needs to be built, now, and like it or lump it, whether it be transit city or a new east-west expressway, there will be negative impacts.

Ontario needs a leader with balls. Build something, people will complain, but at least we have it. People complain no matter what the outcome.

On a personal note, I recently took a job with the Government of Ontario, and I am speaking somewhat from personal observation.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2010, 04:02 AM   #1832
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post

Ontario needs a leader with balls. Build something, people will complain, but at least we have it. People complain no matter what the outcome.
Well Toronto just elected a mayor with some balls, and so did London. Perhaps a premier sharing similar traits will be elected next year.

If something isn't done to the Gardiner soon, it may turn into another Turcot interchange. After years of neglect, the Montreal interchange is a heavily patched mess of flyovers and is beginning to crumble. It's been dubbed "Montreal's ticking time bomb". Just look at this crap:

__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 04:02 PM   #1833
Substructure
Registered User
 
Substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,981
Likes (Received): 10232

I thought it was to be teared down in 2011, and replaced with an on-grade interchange ?
__________________

Substructure no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 09:12 PM   #1834
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

Some members of Montreal's municipal council wanted to see an at-grade intersection put in to reduce the footprint of the interchange. Echange Turcot falls under the jurisdiction of the Province of Quebec, and will be reconstructed as a full freeway to freeway interchange, albeit with a slightly smaller footprint then what was originally proposed to satisfy the City of Montreal.

The province of Quebec is seeing an unprecedented time of highway expansion right now. Which is good, however given the condition of some of the provinces existing roads, I wonder if never ending highway expansion is coming at the expense of highway maintenance.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2010, 08:33 AM   #1835
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

I don't think plans have been finalized for Turcot, but at least they have some idea with what they're doing, unlike the Gardiner.

Quebec's highways seem much more poorly maintained than Ontario's or the rest of Canada. Is this simply because they have such a large network and they're continuing to build it out? Or are other factors involved...
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:29 AM   #1836
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 960
Likes (Received): 860

MTQ released it recently:

http://www.turcot.gouv.qc.ca/
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 07:33 AM   #1837
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
I don't think plans have been finalized for Turcot, but at least they have some idea with what they're doing, unlike the Gardiner.

Quebec's highways seem much more poorly maintained than Ontario's or the rest of Canada. Is this simply because they have such a large network and they're continuing to build it out? Or are other factors involved...
Well, the Autoroute system is actually almost identical to Ontario's 400-series in terms of total length (~1900 km in Quebec and ~1860 km in Ontario), but the fact that they are building it out might be a reason. That's probably not the only reason though.

Even as one drives on the 401 toward Quebec, as soon as one crosses the border one quickly gets reminded of the fact by the noticeably poorer quality of the A20. Not only is the maintenance quality poorer, but also in many places I noticed that design standards are also lower - e.g. acceleration lanes are significantly shorter on the A20 than on the 401.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 12:42 PM   #1838
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,568
Likes (Received): 19354

What is the reason the road network in Quebec is poorer? I've read something about high unemployment in the largest cities and strict language laws which scare off investment.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #1839
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 702
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is the reason the road network in Quebec is poorer? I've read something about high unemployment in the largest cities and strict language laws which scare off investment.
Well as TheCat mentioned, their network is longer than Ontario's and continuing to be expanded. Quebec has a much smaller population, so that's a smaller tax base to maintain their infrastructure. In addition, Quebec has a lot of social programs in place (trying not to sound anti-Quebec here but a lot of them are meant to retain their French-Canadian heritage) so there simply isn't as much money available.

With the exception of the Trans-Canada highway network and some others, highways in this country are not federally maintained, unlike the USA or other countries. This means road quality significantly differs from province to province.

For example, if anyone travels from Ontario to Manitoba, you'll see a remarkable difference in the road, even more than the Ontario-Quebec transition on Highway 401 / Autoroute 20. Ontario's side has a two-lane, decently maintained highway whereas Manitoba's side has a four lane, poorly maintained highway. It feels almost as if you're traveling to another country!

Here's a link to the boarder via Google Maps. Use streetview in this area for a more detailed look. http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...,0.016512&z=17
__________________
My Twitter

My Simcity Stuff
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 07:49 AM   #1840
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Though, in the case of the Trans-Canada, Ontario also has a long way to go. Apparently some sections of Highway 17 and Highway 11 are very dangerous (I think that's pretty close to the border with Manitoba, and also has to do with the terrain). There was a discussion about this a few years back on this forum.

I think together, ON and MB are the missing link in the TCH, although of course, the traffic levels probably do not warrant a significant expansion at this time.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autoroute, highways, ontario, toronto

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium