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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:11 PM   #21
Dinivan
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who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?
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Old March 21st, 2008, 01:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?
Frm what I've read, the new HS Train in Portugal will have its own independent line.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 01:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?
The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
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I'm really interested in how this section of line was built. I assume this is on an old trackbed? But it looks as though it's got new build reinforced concrete foundation trackbed underneath the ballast. That must have required the whole line shut down for long periods to put that in. The upgrade of the WCML is high quality, but in very few places are they going to the extent of putting in modern foundations underneath replacements of the rest of the trackbed!! That must ride really well.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 04:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.
I think he meant to ask why there is already a blue line between Lisbon and Porto, and they're also going to construct a red line between both cities. What's the use of having two high speed rail connections between Lisbon and Porto?
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Old March 21st, 2008, 05:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
who's the manufacturer of these trains? and also, why are HSL in Portugal so complicated? I mean, why not making a straight blue line between Lisbon and Porto instead of this mixture of high-speed rail and conventional rail?
That is explained because it was not a NEW line being built but simply a line upgrade.

CP in late 80's was tryingto decide wich newer rapid intercity trains should be bought ... (they even considered buying asthom TGV's back then) ... but in the end settled for some 30 "eurosprinter" locomotives and the upgrading of some "sorefame" INOX coaches (to add to the recent adquired corail coaches) for secondary lines ... and the main line would be operated by FIAT pendulino trains wich could be run at higher speeds in the current infraestructure ... so 10 of those were bought in the end.

The trains were "assembled" in Amadora(a railway factury in Portugal owned by ADTranz?/Bombardier wich is now closed) ... they were built by FIAT with Siemens motores/electronics

the original idea was that if pendulino trains could run at higher speeds they could use the current unrenovated route at speeds of 160km/h and save a lot of time ... but the OLD (the line was originaly from 1850's) trackbed was seen as unsuitable to consistent and massive runing of 25ton per axle trains and passenger trains at 140/160km/h ... and if one was "renewing" from scratch it would be better to do a propper job so the plan was changed to a completely renovated line including new trackbed , bridges and rails and even the overhead catenary was exchanged (supporting posts included).

When they saw that the simple upgrade was inefective they went even further and began to study the implementation of a major upgrading program wich included new major variants to the existing route and NEW (proposedly built) alignements in large areas.

Lisboa-Porto has one(1 - the northern line) main line and three (3 - oeste , beira alta and vouga NG) secundary lines ... they are currently "painstakingly" upgrading the main route (with some stretches quadrupled outside lisboa) and in the remaining urban areas the quadruplication was postoned because it was decided to separate urban trafic from long haul trafic ... a resume of the current status of "Northern line":

- Great Porto Metropolitan Area has seen a major upgrade to it's urban lines in the form of "metro do porto" wich is a mixture of everything ... light rail veicles wich run on metro tunels inside the city , on old narrow gauge routes outside of it and are expanding to NEW destinations either by underground tunels, street-like-tram or surface-metro lines ... it is already at 70km.
- Porto central station (located at "Campanha") has been renewed and a new terminal facing north was also built (from "passing" 9 platforms it passed to 9 + 6 platforms plus 2 passing lines without platform)
- Porto-Gaia has seen a new bridge (São João Bridge) built in early 90's
- Gaia center has seen a new Center station ("General Torres") wich is underused
- Gaia main station at "Devesas" is a complete wreck this precise instant (they just demolished the main building last weekend) and will be only "slightly" modernized prior to the begining of the HSL infraestructure works.
- Gaia-Espinho is not currently upgraded and is a nice "old looking" suburban line ... with all the constraint it implies ... the quadruplication was droped (at least temporarily) in favour of a NEW alignement for the HSL directly out of Gaia by the interior and direct to coimbra(100km south).
- Espinho station is being rebuilt in a tunel under the city ...
- from south of Espinho , passing by Aveiro (another main station) and all the way up to Pampilhosa (main exchange station of lisboa-porto and figueira-medina-hendaye main lines) the line was completely removed and a NEW rail infraestructure built in its place (they actualy DIG 1 or 2 meter underground and started from scratch ... it is mostly at 200/220km/h and heavily used.
- Pampilhosa-coimbra-Alfarelos is not currently upgraded and they are waiting for the HSL final details to renovate that part of the line.
- Coimbra is starting its own "metro mondego" system wich will use parts of some secundary railway routes (linha da Lousa) and will connect with Coimbra main station (wich will be served by the new HSL and renovated acordingly)
- From alfarelos (a hub between northern line , oeste(west) line and suburban/harbour line to figueira) down south the line was completely renovated until entroncamento and it is astonishing to see such speeds as 180<>200km/h achieved in that part of the line ... lots of level crossings were supressed in this area ... there are actualy dozens of bridges with NO road paved in the nearboring miles. (during the renewing works when they cut the regional services for same months straight the replacement buses took almost 3h to complete the service that the train does in less than 30 minutes).
- Entroncamento (main hub of northern line and the line to madrid) is the site of the "future" national railway museum and the main workshops of the portuguese railways (EMEF is currently assembling the new freight LE4700 locomotives to CP there)
- Entroncamento-Santarem is not renewed yet ... half of it will see a new variant (26km) passing inland begin construction work very soon
- Santarem is a nice station near the Tejo but it is TOO near the river and prone to floodings now and then .. .and its a curvy zone underneat the city castle steep hill (wich probably will fall under the river someday) .. .so a new line is being built in the other side of the hill.
-Santarem-Setil-Azambuja is completely renewed with some new viaducts 1,3km long and major cuttings to correct the alignement and allow speeds of 220km/h ... along with lots and lots of level crossing supressions /the majority of the funding from EU to portugal went precisely to this little ad almost neglected item ... supression of level crossings nationwide).
-Azambuja-VFXira-Alverca-Oriente was suposed to be a four track 200km/h route but the intermediate section Alverca-VFXira is too narrow and too near the Tejo to alow 4 tracks to be instaled in a simple upgrade so they decided to leave it as it was in the time being.
- Oriente station is a new 8 track station built just outside of lisboa in late 90's .. .and has since then became the main station to all long distance trains.
- From oriente the trains run south to Santa Apolonia (The old main station) and to the "cintura line" from where they follow to Sintra and (back up north again by Oeste station) tho the south cross the tejo (by 25 de abril bridge) in their way to alentejo and Algarve.

Until recently the NORTH and SOUTH regions of portugal railway network were almost separated from one another ... an thus it was decided to conect both of them in the region of lisboa ... so in a radical investment program it was decided to UPGRADE the 25 de abril bridge to pass from 2+2 road lanes (with a 5th reversible) to 3+3 and to introduce rail trafic in the lower level (wich was contemplated in the original project) ... it was decided to also make a strenghtening of the bridge at the same time:

This was coincident(? simultaneous) in time with the reestructuring of the national state railways (separate infraestructure and train operation into different companies) and was seen as a good oportunity to test the privatization of rail operations ... this led to the cration of the REFER (state owned infraestructure company) an the private company FERTAGUS to operate the trains on the new route over the tagus bridge.

The crossing departs from "cintura line" near the "Aqueducto das Aguas Livres" and heads by means of large viaducts to the lower level of the 25/4 ... from here it crosses the river and enters into a tunel (half o it was built since the 60's when 25/4 was completed) as soon as it reaches the south bank wich leads to "Pragal" station in the south side ... and from there it follows near A2 (highway) all the way up to Coina.

On the other side in the late 80's and early 90's there was a major Ford/Volkswaggen factory built at Penalva an do it was decided to built a part of the "projected" connection to the 25/4 at that time ... thus the PinhalNovo-Penalva line was built ... it was a single line not electrified but the trackbed was built to acomodate a posterior second line ... in 2000's it was upgraded to double line electrified and the speed was settled at 200km/h.

In the same modernization programme the Penalva-Coina gap was built and it involves a station at Coina (the old line ended in the workshops that service Fertagus trains) and another at Penalva (inside the Autoeuropa autoplant railyard complex) and in between there is a 400m viaduct and a 700m tunel ... its also at 200km/h

Pinhal Novo station has been entirely renewed ... "almost" entirely as the local populace didn't alow the old signal tower to be demolished so it was decided to move it a little bit ... currently it is still in the same place ... just in the middle of the DIRECT 200km/h passing main lines.

The line from Pinhal Novo to Setubal was also renewed and electrified (it's at 200km/h) and Fertagus services were extended to Setubal by 2004.

From PinhalNovo the "Alentejo" line (the OLD South line) was upgraded up to Poceirão and then down south thru the "variant" (built in late 70's ?) where it joins OLD "Sado Line" (now called south line) at Agualva/Aguas de Moura (its 2 tracks at 220km/h)

From there it enters the new alignement of the south line (also built in the 70's) um to Pinheiro station ... the line was upgraded to 220km/h but remained a single line (the variant was built for 2 track) .. .the old alignement was converted to a local road a long time ago.

From Pinheiro , down to Alcaçer and somewhere in the middle of nowhere (also called pk94) the route follow near the sado river and will be replaced/joined in the near future by a new alignement and a cross sado bridge ... it is being built to be a 250km/h double track line.

From "pk94" to Grandola they built a new track(220 km/h) just at the side of the old one (wich was at 140km/h) and then they REMOVED the old one (how stupid can one be ???)

Grandola is a single line mainline passable at 200km/h with 2 side lines (3 platforms total)

From Grandola to Ermidas they completely forget the old alignement and built a new one with lots of SINGLE LINE viaducts (200km/h) ... old iron bridges can be seen all the way alongside the new alignement concrete viaducts

Ermidas-Alvalade-TorreVã saw a different "demency" than the other parts of the route ... it was renovated as a double line and the speeds are at 220km/h (much more can be achieved there as it is practicaly a straight flat line ... myself recorded 225km/h there) ... a major viaduct (more than 1200m) was buit near Alvalade station.

Torre Vã-funcheira was almost left unrenovated and it's as low as one can get in Soth Line ... 80km/h to conventiona trains ... with the tilting trains hitting some terrific 100km/h using FULL TILT.

To settle things straight:
Ermidas-funcheira = 50km
Ermidas-T.Vã = 30km of double track at 220km/h "straight"
T.Vã-funcheira = 20km of single track 100km/h "full tilt"
- the original idea was that all long distance trains would pass each other at full speed in the 1st section
- long time history has made it constant that crossings are at Amoreiras (south of Funcheira) or somewhere even down .. .so intercity have to stop "in the bush" to allow the Alfa Pendular to go ahead ...

From there and all the way up to algarve(Tunes) the line was renewed in some places and the speeds of (90/CNV usualy meaning 90 to conventional trains and CNV meaning "look at Convel for speed" gives the fabulous 110km/h for tilting trains) are largely abundant over there (some places were already at 120/140km/h with concrete sleepers and thus were simply electrified and put 10km higher for tilting trains) ... but if one considers thar previously some of it was as low as 10<>60 km/h ... a pendular passing full tilt at 110km/h where previously it was at 10km/h is considered a full upgrade ...

From Tunes to faro the Algarve line was renewed (renewed tracks and sleepers and electrification + CTC) and new stations built.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The blue lines on my map are conventional lines, but where the speed is higher, so Lisbon-Porto line is all one type at the moment.

I'm really interested in how this section of line was built. I assume this is on an old trackbed? But it looks as though it's got new build reinforced concrete foundation trackbed underneath the ballast. That must have required the whole line shut down for long periods to put that in. The upgrade of the WCML is high quality, but in very few places are they going to the extent of putting in modern foundations underneath replacements of the rest of the trackbed!! That must ride really well.
the majority of the upgrading has been made using variants , single line temporary zones and too much passenger shifting ... and ocasional "weekend shut-offs"

Nothern line blue zones are mostly curve rectifications and 100% NEW track beds (even on the old alignements) ... even the small river passages were completely replaced in most of it.

South line blue lines are NEW lines built along the route of the old ones.

See next few post s for pictures of the pre/post works in various parts of both lines.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 06:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
I think he meant to ask why there is already a blue line between Lisbon and Porto, and they're also going to construct a red line between both cities. What's the use of having two high speed rail connections between Lisbon and Porto?
The answer to that question is realy simple.

There are currently lots of lines conecting lots of intermediate cities to each other and to Lisboa and Porto.

But they are not enough and have a huge amount of traffic ... way over their current capabilities.

Oeste line is badly hurt because it is unrenovated ... and while it conects to lisbon area it is way out in the litoral ... it connects to Cacem in the outher tip of "sintra Line" ... wich is one of the most densely used railway lines in the entire europe ... more than 250.000 passengers daily.
Malveira to Cacem is about the same distance that would get you to central lisboa ... if only one traveled in the correct direction.
Its a 50 minute ride on the 40km long roundabound route ... only 24km in a straight line ... do the math yourself.
The central area north of lisboa is practicaly without any kind of heavy public transport.
There are currently talks/planning about building a direct route to central lisboa wich will link directly the "future" central station to the Malveira area (thus turning the Oeste line a direct competitor to Northern line) passing by that same area.
The Oeste line will then be upgraded to higher standards

In the upgrade of the Norther Line (direct Lisboa to north along the Tejo river) it was seen as too costly to upgrade some parts of the current corridor ... so it was decided to make a new alignement in some areas ... but then it was already visible that the current line is at full capacity and the current upgrade can't even deal with planned service upgrades today (actualy was back in 2004) ... don't even think about market liberalization over completely saturated railways.

So it was decided that the new alignements shoud became an entire new line ... (being the 3rd)

Departing from lisboa to the north it will be a "rapid" bypass of current northern line some 40km up (almost at the end of the 4 track suburban area) ... wich will be entirely left for "urban"/"comuter" trains and is a major HUB of industrial sidings along its entire lenght ... most of it was already a part of the northern line upgrade project ... it was mostly the bipasses and the access to the new airport (wich in the end will not be buit over there but down south).

From there it will left the northern corridor and go cross country until it reaches Leiria region (in Oeste line some 120km north of lisboa) ... already some 2 or 3intermediate startions are decided ... considering how things are made in portugal we can safely asume that in the end there will be some few more ... but nonetheless this line alignementwas one ot those "to be built when hell freezes" .. so it was simply added to the cause of the new HSL.

Some few "spurs" of this new line are projected/planed/studied along the way ... as well as the upgrading of the Oeste Line to 200km/h ... as a complement of this HSL and as to elevate the tonnage for freight trains.

From Leiria up north the line returns to the area in wich "northern" line runs and is again the re-utilization of a projected direct connection Oeste-Northern line (wich if weren't for the HSL would probably be already built today).

then it runs along the northern line (segregated alignement as to avoid urban interference of the HS trains) wich is already upgraded to 220km/h until Alfarelos.

Alfarelos-coimbra-Pampilhosa is to be completely renewed ... but since the HSL will be a 300km/h line the entire project ws put on hold until the details are finished ... it will have to acomodate the "future" passage of freight trains from the local harbours in UIC(1435mm) gauge so its a complex project.

From Pampilhosa up north until Ovar/Espinho the line is at 200/220km/h and overly saturated ... it was decided to make a bypass ... so it will go directly From Coimbra to Porto (over the area of the narrow gauge "Vouga line").

And the reason to built the new line is simple ... it connects lots of areas one another and removes the "red speedy pins" from a saturated railway line .. .a.k.a. "the northern line".

It will be possible to travel from Lisboa to Porto in 1h15 at 300km/h in the new line (this time seem pretty achievable even by using the current Alfa Pendular trains ... wich are capable of runing at 250km/h).

The line from Lisboa to Madrid is an entire diferent question ... the actual route departs from Entroncamento (in northern lien 100km north of lisboa) and then goes south to Badajoz (already in spain) from where it goes up again to Plasencia and then to Madrid.

It was decided to buid a new bridge to the south margin of the Tejo to conect to Setubal , Algarve , Alentejo and Spain ... saving 30/40 minutes of the roundabout route across the 25/4 bridge ... like all the other tejo bridges it will be almost entirely privately financed.

From there there's two lines to the borther ... the freight line will use the current Alentejo lines up to Evora (partly electrified , partly at 200/250km/h already) and a new HSL (300/350 km/h or more) will be built linking to the new Airport and from there directly to Evora ... this was decided because the current line is expected to carry an HUGE amount of freight traffic when it's complete.

From Evora to Badajoz the 2 lines will became a single one (4 tracks ?) and from there its the RENFE's bussiness ...

It is expected a travel time of less than 2h45 for the 660km long route from Lisboa to Madrid.

The "Minho" line is "at capacity" and near the sea it has little chance to upgrade to higher standards ... so it was decided to upgrade the Porto-Braga line and from there built a new direct route more inland to Valença ...where a new crosing will be built and connect to Vigo ... it will be "mixed" freight/HSL ... and probably will be used by regional trains.

The main causes of this completely radical upgrading process is the huge increase of rail haulage of containers and the current upgrade of the 7 big deep waters harbours ...

there are currently much more "invisible" investments in terms of freight railway than the "visible" HSL investments going around here.

The plans include such things as huge marshaling/intermodal terminals , Supercontainer ships directly from major Chinese harbours to Sines harbour and other things.

So the "easy" solution was to remove the annoying Alfa Pendular trains from the main line ... they eat too much capacity that otherwise could be utilized to put more slow running freight trains.

Aditional planned route upgrades include linking Aveiro/Figueira harbours to Salamanca/Irun/Madrid (upgrading the current "Beira Alta line" with "tilting" trains is easy ... or an entirely new line for +200km/h ... things are not decided yet for this route as both options can be constructed in the end) and the direct connection of Algarve to Huelva and Sevilla on the south shores ... but these are just planned for somewhere after 2015.

Expected timeline:
2010 - lisboa-Madrid direct route open for traffic
2013 - Lisboa-Porto "new" northern line (or at least some bottleneck areas removed)
201x - New cross tagus bridge ... no one can possibly expect that the new bridge will be built in less than 3 years.
201x(13? 15?) - Porto-vigo-corunha "new" Atlantic Corridor line open for HS Traffic
20xx - VilarFormoso-Salamanca-Medina (spanish side of the border) electrified ... "Tilting" trains could then link Portuguese cities to Spanish and French cities via the spanish HSL network at good speeds (Porto-Madrid is 550km and at 220/250kmh would be just in the 2h mark).



Added a map to show the timeline of the upgrades:
(80's /90's not very acurate ... from "today" forward subject to future world history)
(green areas show anything from "being planned" to "under construction" or "under upgrade" in that particular timeframe)

During the 80's and early 90's basicaly bibloc concrete sleepers and 54kg/m rails were introduced in large areas , 120/140 km/h became comon sightings in speed limits in the main lines.

Middle 90's saw the mass introduction of CONVEL (automated speed and braking control system) , large electrification extensions.

Late 90's was the begining of the complete overhaul of the "core" network with large new sections of line being completely rebuilt with new trackbeds , monoblock sleepers , 60kg/m rails and electrifications ... speeds of up to 220km/h are now possible in the blue areas.
(those speeds could be higher but they choose to favour the "finetuning" of the overhead wires to 60<>220 km/h speeds to acomodate heavier freight trains more easily)
(yess ... speed limited by "overhead wires" .. .and of course ... the "oficial" speed of the rail veichles).
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Last edited by sotavento; March 21st, 2008 at 08:24 PM.
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 01:49 AM   #27
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Southern Line:

From Lisboa to Aguas de Moura and Pinheiro its all new line:

From Pinheiro to Alcaçer and "pk94" its still the old line.

- the new variant is being built somewhere on the far hills in the background
- pictures of it will be added later

between pk94 and Grandola (220km/h single line zone) ... the "old" line remains can be seen in the right: (pic of 2002)

- it was actualy 140 km/h fraded trackage ... such a waste.

Going further south we get the new alignement in Canal Caveira: (pics of 2002 during the construction works)

- new large curve at the exit of the station

- the Level crossing was replaced by this bridge

- the station area is fully fenced and it even has 4m high sound proof barriers nowadays

Looking north

Looking south

the new track

Aditiona pictures of Canal Caveira station:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/...Caveira_01.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/...Caveira_02.jpg
Pics by José Sousa in 2006

The new large curve at the begining of the ramp:

- the old line continued ahead to te left and made a sharp curve.

The new viaducts south of Canal Caveira ... a steep climb: (pics of 2002)



- notice the old line coming from the left


Large curve in the top of the ramp


- notice the old alignement coming from the right to the left ... in the ramp it already crossed from side to side some 4 times ... while the ramp is a large curve almost like a straight line with 3 large viaducts and major cuttings.
- 200km/h tilting trains in both directions ... empty freight trains up ... loaded 2000ton coal downways.
- the curves have some rare geometry due to their "tuning" for pendular trains

Entering Ermidas (from north)


- the new substation

- the new under pass

- north entrance ... left track is a weightscale for freight trains
- the "point" between the two middle tracks is 200km/h from north-south(right) and "assumedly" 100 km/h south(left)-north <<< a major handicap here since it is the end of the double track

- the new "minimalistic" (a little bit TOO MUCH minimalistic to say the least) layout of Ermidas
- from left to right ... upper platform/shelter track ... 2 passing tracks ... down platform/shelter track
- there are actualy 2 "points" in the other end of "upper" track ... one bypasses the scale seen above.

- a picture to show how the railtrack was over there prior to the modernization
- the old part of the junction (north) came directly from the station (line 1 ... aka Upper stop track) to the Sines line (to the left) ... the new south junction diverged rather tangently (temporary connection) was also built in 2002.
- subsequently everything was later replaced by proper infraestructure (it only lasted some 6 months "tops" in this configuration)
Some pictures more updated of Ermidas Station can be found HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/...-Sado/pix.html

Ermidas-TorreVã ... 140km/h "old" track (from the 80's actualy):


Alvalade station is in the middle of the double track section:
Some pictures HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/...alade/pix.html
- notice that the "old" line had a sharp curve to the left and was replaced by a softer 1,3km long viaduct
-

Torre Vã (was provisionaly upgraded to station during the works)



Lots of pictures of the time of construction can be found HERE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pt/...o_Sul/pix.html
- as can be seen the "South line" upgrade is mostly NEW lines and completely diferent alignements ... lets say 99% new line.
- built "minimalisticaly" to alow 200/220 km/h ... 250 km/h in the near (?) future when freight traffic is diverted from the line by the new direct route to Sines.

From Torre Vã to the south the upgrades weren't aimed at "high speeds" but merely to alow some "not that shamefull" speeds as 110/140 km/h.
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Last edited by sotavento; March 8th, 2011 at 03:04 AM.
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 08:47 AM   #28
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Looking back north:

As a curiosilty ... the large straight section on wich most High Speed records were broken in portugal ... is actualy "not" an high speed area of the northern line:
- recta de Maceda between Ovar and Espinho ... currently at 140km/h (160km/h alowed for tilting trains)

Photo: Pedro Costa http://comboiosdonorte.fotopic.net/
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 5th, 2008, 06:14 AM   #29
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Some news on the new Lisboa-Madrid HSL:

http://www.rave.pt/concursos/ppp_poc...ia/anuncio.htm

Poceirão-Caia (170km) wich is part of the Lisboa-Madrid was put for tenders last month (anounced in the 14th of March) so now it's almost time to open the proposals (1 month time).

Why the HSL Lisboa-Madrid will be a "mixed" traffic line: (just put it on google translator)
http://www.rave.pt/estudos/merc.htm

Avaliação de Impacte Ambiental (where you can get the PDF's with the MAPS of the route)

Troço Moita/Montemor-o-Novo (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3A2)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/MMLM/L3A2_resumo_nt_EIA.htm

Troço Montemor-o-Novo/Évora (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3B)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/MELM/L3B.htm

Troço Évora/Elvas (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote 3C)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/EELM/L3C.htm

Troço Elvas/Caia (Eixo Lisboa-Madrid, Lote LTF)
http://www.rave.pt/ambiente/ECLM/LTF.htm
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 5th, 2008, 08:08 AM   #30
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Thank you for the very impresive pics. I cant get over how clean and tidy your rail tracks and stations are. Not like over here in Western Australia with grafiti and weeds everywhere.
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Old April 5th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #31
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We have those also but not on high speed corridors ... wellll ... actualy we do have them in places where high speed trains run.

Here are some "specimens" from the southern part of Lisboa-Porto main "northern" line:

Lisboa "Chelas" station (while not an actual part of the northern line this is actualy one of the points where the NEW bridge will connect to the actual railways on the northern bank of the TEJO ... it will be a triangular junction with one point to the bridge itself and the other will go north to Lisboa(Oriente) station:










Santa Iria station: A tipical suburban station in northern line just outside lisboa ... 160km/h in the "slow" tracks (2 inside??) ... 180km/h in the fast tracks (2 outside???) (200km/h for pendular trains)

Photo: Jose Sousa

Povoa station: (15km north of lisboa)

Photo: Jose Sousa

A nice flyover on the down fast track just north of Povoa (nice to go by full pendulation at 200km/h)

Photo: Jose Sousa


Santarem station:
An old station near the Tejo river (some 74km north of lisboa) ... photo taken during a flooding ... a new variant (new station included) is being built (works didn't start yet) on the other side of the city.



Mato de Miranda: (actualy a part of the "to-be-renovated-in-the-future" section of Northern Line ... trains pass over here at 140km/h ... a slow speed by our standards)












Riachos station:

Photo: Jose Sousa
- just south of entroncamento ... unrenovated tracks (140km/h)


Entroncamento station:








Photos: Jose Sousa
Still unrenovated .. .that little pedestrian crossing and the crazy layout are cause to a very low (60km/h) speed restriction nowadays
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old June 3rd, 2008, 04:25 AM   #32
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Quote:
Thomson Financial News
Portugal govt launches first tranche of TGV train line tender for 1.450 bln eur
06.02.08, 1:45 PM ET

LISBON (Thomson Financial) - The Portuguese government has launched the tender to build the first tranche of the TGV high-speed train link between the capitals of Portugal and Spain, valued at 1.450 billion euros, Public Works minister Mario Lino said.

The tender will cover the construction of 167 kilometres of high-speed rail line between the localities of Poceiro and Caia, as well as a further 92 kilometres of conventional rail line, and will also include the construction of a station at the city of Evora.

Consortia have four months to present a bid for the tender, with the winning bid expected to be announced in the third quarter of 2009.

The Madrid-Lisbon high-speed rail link is expected to start operations in 2013.

According to press reports, a consortium including Mota Engil, SGPS SA, Teixeira Duarte - Engenharia e Construcoes, SA and Sacyr Vallehermoso SA's Somague unit is set to bid for the first tranche of the TGV high-speed rail link between Lisbon and the Spanish border.

Another consortium made up of Grupo Soares da Costa, SGPS, SA and Brisa - Autoestradas de Portugal, SA is also reported to be forming to lodge a bid for the tender.


[email protected]

jg/jlc


It's officialy rolling ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old June 7th, 2008, 09:02 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
It's officialy rolling ...
Contratulations, Sotavento. Your railway authorities deserve rave reviews (pun intented!) for this decision. As you know from our discussion on another thread I'm very much in favour of new solutions as opposed to patching up the existing ones. This one looks wholesome, I must say. I was particularly impressed with the part about "conventional rail line" around Evora, because I had wondered if they would give into a "German temptation" and divert the entire line to this intermediate stop. It seems not, so good luck to you guys!

One question, BTW: What happens between Lisbon and Poceirão? I understand that, among other things, a new railway bridge over the Tego is planned, but when is that part of the line going to move ahead?
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Old June 15th, 2008, 05:58 PM   #34
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That is precisely why the lisboa-madrid line is divided in such parts:

Lisboa-barreiro-Poceirão = 2x double track
- Barreiro-Poceirão "conventional" route will use the existing one (dating from 1860) wich is half electrified (as aprt of Lisboa-Algarve upgrade of the South Line and at 200km/h) and the remaining part is currently under upgrade works (rennewing stations , electrification , with CTC signaling recently installed, route speed is 120/140 km/h but catenary and signaling is being installed to allow future 250km/h)
-New bridge Lisboa-barreiro = 4x tracks ... 2x uic and 2x iberica (possible to future conversion to UIC) ... it will be a 9km bridge (max speed is not certain yet ... could be as low as 120km/h or as high as 200km/h ???)
From barreiro the 2x UIC tracks will go directly to poceirão (max speeds as of today expected to be 350km/h)

In poceirão the Lisboa-Algarve "upgraded" route will diverge from the main line , with another branch to the (projected) new Lisboa Airport

from there to the borderthe LAV eill follow a direct course (passing thru evora city limits) and the OLD "conventional" route will be used for freight to evora ... from evora to the border there will be 3 or 4 tracks ... 2 being at 350km/h UIC and the remaining in dual.gauge sleepers will be assembled in iberica gauge (awaiting future passage to UIC)


About shedules and such ... its completely different the sheduling of a 30km "urban" railway with a 9km bridge than that of a 160km of "countryside" ... maiby in the end of the year the oficial we can hear the anouncement of the lisboa-poceirão section or at least that things are under EIA (environmental impact study).

Shedule is to conectto spain before the end of 2013 and the bridge is expected to becomplete in 2014 ... since the only section realy missing is the Evora-Badajoz (80km?) direct trains can start as early as that particular section is complete.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old June 19th, 2008, 10:32 AM   #35
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Schedule is to conect to spain before the end of 2013 and the bridge is expected to becomplete in 2014 ... since the only section realy missing is the Evora-Badajoz (80km?) direct trains can start as early as that particular section is complete.
Sotavento, are the Spaniards "playing ball"? I ask because if you consider (1) the geography of Spain; and (2) the large number of other AVE lines they are constructing I'd have thought a line into Portugal via Badajoz was pretty low on their list of priorities.

By contrast, Spain has in the part begged and beseized France for a high-speed link between Barcelona and the Rhone Valley (which is NOT high on the French list of priorities). The French finally caved in... only to be told that the finalisation of the Spanish LGV from Barcelona to the border will be delayed until further notice. For some years we'll have a TGV train racing all the way from Paris to... Figueras, where the standard-gauge line stops. In my view the Portuguese should brace themselves for disappointments and delays.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #36
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I thought Lisbon - Madrid was part of the EU route aspiration and has recieved funding from the EU? And really don't think that it could be said Spain is dragging it's heels - even if it takes 10 years for that bit you say to be finished that still as fast if not quicker than it would take other European countries, especially Italy, Germany and the UK.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 12:55 PM   #37
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I thought Lisbon - Madrid was part of the EU route aspiration and has recieved funding from the EU?
Is is certainly eligible for EU funding in the context of the Trans-European Networks (not to mention Portuguese and Spanish structural funds), but that's not quite the same as to say that it's an urgent priority. On the list of TENs you have purely domestic projects that are included after intense lobbying, railways that are unlikely ever to be built, etc. The link Rodby(DK)/Puttgarten(DE) has figured as a priority for years, but work got underway only when "mighty Denmark" offered its neighbour to finance the whole thing.

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And really don't think that it could be said Spain is dragging it's heels - even if it takes 10 years for that bit you say to be finished that still as fast if not quicker than it would take other European countries, especially Italy, Germany and the UK.
I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?
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Old June 19th, 2008, 02:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?
On the contrary, Spain has mostly managed to achieve the schedule dates, only when major unpredictable problems have appeared (such as the unstable terrain found in some sections of the Barcelona-Madrid line) have the schedules been missed. And the TGV to the border has been under construction for quite a long time already, if you take the train from Switzerland to Spain for example you can see the works from the old line and they're in a pretty advanced stage; it's actually the french the ones who are going to be miserably late, cos you cannot see anything under construction.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #39
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towards portuguese border, the spanish are already constructing a part of the new HSL Lisboa-Madrid... although they dont anounce a completion data, the international agremment points to 2013 the oficial conclusion for the entire line. and yes, the EU Trans-European Networks funds are already aproved for this line (at least for the portuguese part).

Last edited by JMFA; June 19th, 2008 at 04:04 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Is is certainly eligible for EU funding in the context of the Trans-European Networks (not to mention Portuguese and Spanish structural funds), but that's not quite the same as to say that it's an urgent priority. On the list of TENs you have purely domestic projects that are included after intense lobbying, railways that are unlikely ever to be built, etc. The link Rodby(DK)/Puttgarten(DE) has figured as a priority for years, but work got underway only when "mighty Denmark" offered its neighbour to finance the whole thing.
Thats a really sweeping and unsubstantiated claim, I would like to know how purely domestic projects exist in TENs, seeingst as that would be somewhat of an oxymoron. Are you saying Germany refused to build something, and then when Denmark offered to pay for it, only then did Germany decide to go ahead? And if this is the case - how/why is this relevant to Lisbon - Madrid route which is not within the jurisdiction of either Germany or Denmark?

Quote:
I didn't say that Spain is dragging its heels, but you must concede two points: (1) the French, when they get their act together, are faster in rolling out their "grands projects"; and (2) the Spanish government is given to a certain "machismo" in its transport policy, announcing massive schemes that they are unlikely to be able to achieve in the time available. Perhaps this is a way of trying to discipline the domestic debate and/or galvanise the planning procedures?
No, I can't concede these. The French have themselves placed doubt on the completion of the last bit from Montpellier to Perpignan any time soon, whilst the Spanish have started construction on their bit as Dinivan has stated, and I believe to be true as well. And I also believe that the Spanish have had quite a good record of project delivery.
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