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Old June 19th, 2008, 04:07 PM   #41
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as far as we know, we (the portuguese) are the ones who are starting latter than expected.. still the dead line is fixed.. so it would be a litle precipitated if we started already saying that the spanish wont finish their part on schedule
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Old June 20th, 2008, 11:28 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thats a really sweeping and unsubstantiated claim, I would like to know how purely domestic projects exist in TENs, seeingst as that would be somewhat of an oxymoron.
It's a sweeping claim, true, but it is sadly not unsubstantiated. Take a look at the priority axes according to TEN: http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/maps/axes_en.htm.
Unsurprisingly, national planners have tried to give a certain trans-national slant to their pet projects to gain EU funding. OK, but some of these schemes cry to high heavens. For example, the transalpine connection between Germany and Italy is now prolonged to Palermo in order to get EU money for the totally intra-Italian Messenia bridge. The Nordic rail corridors are not the least bit "transnational" apart from the fact that a couple of the lines end at a border. Also, I think you'll find that the Iberian railway plans, while containing undeniably transnational links, contain several purely domestic elements.

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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Are you saying Germany refused to build something, and then when Denmark offered to pay for it, only then did Germany decide to go ahead? And if this is the case - how/why is this relevant to Lisbon - Madrid route which is not within the jurisdiction of either Germany or Denmark?
The relevance is, this link has appeared not only on the TEN list, but on the top-TEN (pun intended!) of high-priority projecs, for ages. The Danes initially thought that this fact would make the Germans feel "honour bound" to get moving, but they were mistaken. The Spanish could equally well sleep on the link Madrid-Lisbon if they chose. (But remember: I'm not saying that this will happen. I was asking.) And yes, in the end Denmark has offered to pay for the bridge. A state treaty to this effect is being drawn up as we speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
No, I can't concede these. The French have themselves placed doubt on the completion of the last bit from Montpellier to Perpignan any time soon, whilst the Spanish have started construction on their bit as Dinivan has stated, and I believe to be true as well. And I also believe that the Spanish have had quite a good record of project delivery.
Elfa, you're mixing two things. The French never committed to a time schedule for completing Montpellier-Perpignan. They committed to a time schedule for completing their part of Perpignan-Barcelona. So did the Spanish. However, at this point in time it looks like Perpignan-Figueras will be finished on schedule while it is abundantly clear that Figueras-Barcelona will not.

On the issue of the Spanish record of project delivery, let me share a personal experience. In 2005 I had booked a summer vacation to Spain, with hotel rooms reserved in Sevilla, Madrid and Barcelona in sequence. The idea was of course to take the AVE from Sevilla to Madrid, next from Madrid to Barcelona. Idiot that I was, it didn't even occur to me that the line M-B that was scheduled to open in 2004 (subject to repeat assurances from the then minister of public works that the project was on track) would not stand ready in the summer of 2005. Well... in the end I had to cancel.

Last edited by hans280; June 20th, 2008 at 05:33 PM.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 05:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Sotavento, are the Spaniards "playing ball"? I ask because if you consider (1) the geography of Spain; and (2) the large number of other AVE lines they are constructing I'd have thought a line into Portugal via Badajoz was pretty low on their list of priorities.

By contrast, Spain has in the part begged and beseized France for a high-speed link between Barcelona and the Rhone Valley (which is NOT high on the French list of priorities). The French finally caved in... only to be told that the finalisation of the Spanish LGV from Barcelona to the border will be delayed until further notice. For some years we'll have a TGV train racing all the way from Paris to... Figueras, where the standard-gauge line stops. In my view the Portuguese should brace themselves for disappointments and delays.
the portugese part of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL is composed of 3 different sections.

i) 40km long ... a new 9km bridge to aliviate the overused "25 de abril" bridge (150.000 autos and double deck trains at maximum capacity) and to reduce travel times down south bu 30 minutes (for passenger trains) and to allow direct running of north-south freight trains (currently running thru a secondary single line)

ii) 80km long ... the "intermediate" connection segment ... it realy is not a necessity to build this section ... it is just a connection segment per se ... not even a single station is on the building board here.

iii) 80km long ... the Evora-Badajoz new direct route ... a route exists (2 sides of a triangle actualy) but is very "spartan" ... and (in one of the triangle) is currently closed to traffic ... it will be a 3 tracks section.

One has to take notice that i) and iii) would greatly benefit from ii) being built ... and considering that ii) is paralel to a single track route it is more like the doubling of that same route than a "new" NEW route.

Nevermind the spanish erratic shedduling ... Badajoz-Merida is under construction ... if they choose to leave Caceres-Madrid to a posterior date it will still be a 140/160km/h route in that section.

Caceres-Lisboa should be somewhere around 330km ... so 1h travel time (or something slightly above that) should be feasible ... at 150kmh the remaining 320km would only take a little over 2h ...

If they just built a single/double track capable of 250km/h running it would save a lot of work ... make it paralel to the existing one and it would even be better.
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Old September 7th, 2008, 07:49 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
It's a sweeping claim, true, but it is sadly not unsubstantiated. Take a look at the priority axes according to TEN: http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/maps/axes_en.htm.
Unsurprisingly, national planners have tried to give a certain trans-national slant to their pet projects to gain EU funding. OK, but some of these schemes cry to high heavens. For example, the transalpine connection between Germany and Italy is now prolonged to Palermo in order to get EU money for the totally intra-Italian Messenia bridge. The Nordic rail corridors are not the least bit "transnational" apart from the fact that a couple of the lines end at a border. Also, I think you'll find that the Iberian railway plans, while containing undeniably transnational links, contain several purely domestic elements.

The relevance is, this link has appeared not only on the TEN list, but on the top-TEN (pun intended!) of high-priority projecs, for ages. The Danes initially thought that this fact would make the Germans feel "honour bound" to get moving, but they were mistaken. The Spanish could equally well sleep on the link Madrid-Lisbon if they chose. (But remember: I'm not saying that this will happen. I was asking.) And yes, in the end Denmark has offered to pay for the bridge. A state treaty to this effect is being drawn up as we speak.



Elfa, you're mixing two things. The French never committed to a time schedule for completing Montpellier-Perpignan. They committed to a time schedule for completing their part of Perpignan-Barcelona. So did the Spanish. However, at this point in time it looks like Perpignan-Figueras will be finished on schedule while it is abundantly clear that Figueras-Barcelona will not.

On the issue of the Spanish record of project delivery, let me share a personal experience. In 2005 I had booked a summer vacation to Spain, with hotel rooms reserved in Sevilla, Madrid and Barcelona in sequence. The idea was of course to take the AVE from Sevilla to Madrid, next from Madrid to Barcelona. Idiot that I was, it didn't even occur to me that the line M-B that was scheduled to open in 2004 (subject to repeat assurances from the then minister of public works that the project was on track) would not stand ready in the summer of 2005. Well... in the end I had to cancel.
Quote:
Axes and priority projects Project
00 Priority axes and projects
01 Railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milano-Bologna-Napoli-Messina-Palermo
02 High-speed railway axis Paris-Bruxelles/Brussel-Köln-Amsterdam-London
03 High-speed railway axis of south-west Europe
04 High-speed railway axis east
05 Betuwe line
06 Railway axis Lyon-Trieste-Divača/Koper-Divača-Ljubljana-Budapest-Ukrainian border
07 Motorway axis Igoumenitsa/Patra-Athina-Sofia-Budapest
08 Multimodal axis Portugal/Spain-rest of Europe
09 Railway axis Cork-Dublin-Belfast-Stranraer (completed 2001)
10 Malpensa (completed 2001)
11 Öresund fixed link (completed 2000)
12 Nordic triangle railway/road axis
13 UK/Ireland/Benelux road axis
14 West coast main line
15 Galileo
16 Freight railway axis Sines-Madrid-Paris
17 Railway axis Paris-Strasbourg-Stuttgart-Wien-Bratislava
18 Rhine/Meuse-Main-Danube inland waterway axis
19 High-speed rail interoperability on the Iberian peninsula
20 Fehmarn Belt railway axis
21 Motorways of the sea
- Motorway of the sea of western Europe (leading from Portugal and Spain via the Atlantic Arc to the North Sea and the Irish Sea);
- Motorway of the sea of south-east Europe (connecting the Adriatic Sea to the Ionian Sea and the Eastern Mediterranean to include Cyprus);
- Motorway of the sea of south-west Europe (western Mediterranean), connecting Spain, France, Italy and including Malta, and linking with the motorway of the sea of south‑east Europe.

22 Railway axis Athina-Sofia-Budapest-Wien-Praha-Nürnberg/Dresden
23 Railway axis Gdansk-Warszawa-Brno/Bratislava-Wien
24 Railway axis Lyon/Genova-Basel-Duisburg-Rotterdam/Antwerpen
25 Motorway axis Gdansk-Brno/Bratislava-Wien
26 Railway/road axis Ireland/United Kingdom/continental Europe
27 "Rail Baltica" axis Warsaw-Kaunas-Riga-Tallinn-Helsinki
28 "Eurocaprail" on the Brussels-Luxembourg-Strasbourg railway axis
29 Railway axis of the Ionian/Adriatic intermodal corridor
30 Inland waterway Seine-Scheldt
All of these report to the MIXED railway Lisboa/Sines-Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres and its branch lines ... yes ... to the EU its one and the same.

and by the way ... Coruña-Vigo , Vigo-Porto , Porto-Lisboa , Lisboa-Algarve and Algarve-Huelva-Sevilla are also considered to be the same corridor.

This is all due to the EU wanting to enforce a gauge change in the peninsula (thus the large incentives)
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 09:35 AM   #45
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Some updates:

1- The HSL Lisboa-Poceirão-Caia(Badajoz)-Madrid is well underway ... they are already choosing the contractors:

Source: http://www.rave.pt/tabid/232/ItemID/...s/Default.aspx

2- Lisboa-Porto HSL is only a little behind:

Lisboa-alenquer (roughly 40km) public consultancy period is over ... the sections north of it will soon follow.

3- Barreiro-PinhalNovo ... a section that forms part of the slow tracks of the future Lisboa-Madrid line is already electrified ... soon they will start work on the V.Novas-Evora railway (also a port of the Lx-Mad connection) ... wich means that there are 50km electrified out of 115km built ...

... for the Lisboa-Madrid "corridor" there are actually only 29km missing ...



4- Some sections of the Northern Line are due to receive an upgrade in signaling and electric systems.

5- other sections are about to start construction work ... to be upgraded to 220km/h this year.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 08:48 AM   #46
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very nice development
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Old January 24th, 2009, 04:51 PM   #47
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Can't wait!
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Old February 18th, 2009, 06:51 AM   #48
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Phase 1 of the Alcaçer variant is complete ... next ... the bridge over the Sado river itself (Already past EIA phase) ... and then the track/catenary/Signaling ... and then some 29km added to the portuguese total mileage of HSL.

Quote:
Complete works of the 1st PHASE (THE STATION PINHEIRO / 94 KM SOUTH OF THE LINE)



The REFER has terminated for work on the works of the 1st Phase of the variant of Alcácer between the station 94 km from Pinheiro and the South Line, a distance of 29km, which represents a reduction of 6.5 kilometers for the route current.
The contract, concluded on 15 October, was marked by the construction of a wide range of infrastructure, of which are:

- Out of earthworks, drainage, infrastructure protection, water and wildlife passages of the new platform means;
- Implementation of the viaducts on the river bank of S. Martin, with 852m in length and the stream of water Cova, with 271m;
- Implementation of the viaduct EN120 (IC1) with 52m;
- Implementation of eight and seven passages below overpasses to the railways and their re-admission;
- Construction of infrastructure of fixed installations for electric traction (line);
- Construction of infrastructure and signaling systems and telecommunications;
- Construction of a road parallel to the adjacent rail;
- Sealing of the entire railway infrastructure.

Based on a design developed by FERBRITAS's work contract was awarded in response to international public tender, the consortium OPWAY SA / Teodoro Gomes Alho, SA, the value of 23,912,949.70 euros and an execution time of 611 calendar days.
The audit work was undertaken by the consortium WPPT PLANEGE, SA / PENGEST SA.

This first phase of the Project's variant of Alcácer is the subject of a Community contribution of 50 per cent by the ERDF under the QCAIII.

A variant of Alcácer - project that integrates the strategic guidelines for the rail industry - representing a total investment estimated at around 144 million euros and is one of the priority actions for the national rail network, because it allows:

a) Strengthening the competitiveness of the Port of Sines, through its connection to Spain, seen in connection Sines / Évora / Elvas, its linkage with the network of platforms (Poceirão and Elvas), with the ports of Setúbal and Lisbon and connection with High Speed Lisbon / Madrid, with the aim of promoting interoperability of national railway network with European networks of transport of goods;

b) improving the provision of railway passenger long-distance connection in Lisbon - Algarve, by reducing the travel time and reliability, security, becoming an incentive to transfer road traffic to rail, with all the positive impacts resulting therefrom.

Ongoing work of the 2nd phase of this venture as the construction of the bridge over the River Sado and the restoration of access and it is expected to open international tender for the award of the contract for rail and line in the first quarter of 2009.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old February 18th, 2009, 06:57 AM   #49
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A bit of old news:

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Variant of Santarém - Public Consultation
Jun 2008
In keeping with the Aarhus Convention and the Decree - Law No. 69/2000 of 3 May, is in the public consultation, the procedure of environmental impact assessment, between June 11 and 22, July 2008, the project called "Modernization of the Northern line - subsection 1.3 (Setil - Entroncamento) - Trecho Vale de Santarém / Mato Miranda", commonly known as "variant of Santarém.

In this period, the project is subject to public participation through provision of non-technical summary (RNT) and the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) for information and consultation of stakeholders, thereby ensuring the ability of citizens to contribute their views and suggestions.

To this end, the RNT and EIA can be found in the institutions of government whose powers and territorial deployment is warranted, particularly the Commission for Coordination and Regional Development of Lisbon and Tagus Valley, the City Halls of Cartaxo and Santarém and Town of their joints, and the RNT is also available at the website of the Portuguese Agency for the Environment, at http://www2.apambiente.pt/IPAMB_DPP/publico/eia_cp.asp.

With a length of approximately 26km, the variant of Santarém allow operating speeds of 160km / h, the conventional trains and 190km / h, the tilting trains. Leaving the current track about 1.5 km after the stop of Vale de Santarém, the variant turned north on viaduct, after which they are two alternatives to circumvent the heads of Manteigas: by west by part of Asseca, passing along Reimão of the Young and the side of the cluster of Fontainhas (solution 1) or, for spring, along the low of the Ribeira Fontainhas (solution 2).

The two alternatives converge to a new and unique track around the Young Owl, towards the place where the new station will be de Santarém, Quinta South of the Angels, with the pass of the baker.

The building of the new passenger station will be located at the ground, located on the lines, which develop in tunnel. The general design of the interface includes the creation of about 500 parking spaces and a Square of access, partially covered, to articulate the place of departure and making passenger (kiss & ride), taxi and bus stops.

After the season, the variant will remain in tunnel, by around 460m in place that minimizes the impact on the core housing Portela of the bakers, and then, continuing towards the source, through the Ribeira de Cabanas on viaduct, pass south of Alcanhões, beat filled the bed of the Vala of Seixo also on viaduct, to influence north, bypassing the lifting Monteiro, and go again in the current channel of the Northern line, about 1.5 km before Vale de Figueira station.

The investment for the variant of Santarém amounts to about 220 million.
Sicne the decision to buit a new HSL the North Line improvement program has seen a little dongrading ... Santarem station will be "passable" only at 190km/h ... but since the direct lisboa-porto trains will pass to the HSL all passenger trains that continue to use the north line are expected to actually STOP in Santarem.

The sections south of santarem are already modernized to 200/220 and the section just north is also in the process ... (see next post)
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old February 21st, 2009, 02:52 AM   #50
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It seems like the Iberian Peninsula is surpassing the rest of Europe in terms of HSR.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 06:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
It seems like the Iberian Peninsula is surpassing the rest of Europe in terms of HSR.
Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 06:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.
Tell me one country that isn't close to bankruptsy during this ressesion. Even Germany is threatened of going bust over the governmental expeditures to combat the high unemployment.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 07:24 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Tell me one country that isn't close to bankruptsy during this ressesion. Even Germany is threatened of going bust over the governmental expeditures to combat the high unemployment.
Yes, but the level of danger is different. Look this map:

http://www.fr-online.de/top_news/?em...ivw=fr_topnews

red = big danger
yellow = danger
green = danger exists, but is not big

stripes = non-€-countries
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Old February 21st, 2009, 10:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.
You can't really believe that, do you? I mean, spanish government's debt-to-gdp level is close to half that of germany... anyway, what does this have to do with infrastructures?
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Old March 29th, 2009, 06:14 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Be careful, according to german news there is the danger that Portugal and Spain will be bankrupt in some weeks.
The next months can change a lot.
Why should "portugal" be bankrupt ???


Our only "problematic" companies are Quimonda , Siemens , VW-Autoeuropa , Blaupunkt and other such .de companies ... se any pattern here ??

Anyway ... nice map ... wich means ???


Except from some sidekicks from YOUR crysis we are very well thanks ... never mind the possible 5% to 10% drop in our GDP this year due to a lot of german owned companies getin into insolvency here ... since they represent only a couple hundred jobs here we can live with it (opel run away a2 years ago and we managed to survive).


To even compare the effects of the global crysis on this small-company-local-shop portuguese economy to the possible colapse of any given industrial country (like germany) seems rather far fetched.

Do you even know that over here 50% of the banking sector is in fact STATE OWNED ??? and never mind the crysis since we seem to have deeeeeep pockets when it counts.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Last edited by sotavento; March 29th, 2009 at 06:20 AM.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 08:32 AM   #56
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Last monday the international tender for the TTT (third tagus crossing) was launched:

Source (in portuguese): http://www.rave.pt/tabid/232/ItemID/...s/Default.aspx

The 200km between Lisboa and The border with spain are already put for tenders so we are officially rolling.


the bridge itself will be , 200km/h , four track railway bridge on the lower level and a 3 plus 3 lanes highway/motorway on the upper level ... its a bridge some 11 quilometers long.


The railway will then procede by the old South Line (the 2 comuter/freight/conventional tracks) and the 2 High Speed tracks will enter in a tunel ....


... no need to remind that the remaining trackage all the way to the border will be run "fully" at 350km/h.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 6th, 2009, 02:22 AM   #57
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Lusitania on the move! very nice.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #58
sotavento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mourarq View Post
Obras na Variante Ferroviária de Alcácer do Sal











Render's




Traçado
Bit by bit the gaps are closing ...

I believe that it should count as a 100% new track (basic project speed of 250km/h actually) ... and the sections north and south of it are "parallel alignements" to the old track (now dismantled).
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; July 10th, 2009 at 02:31 AM.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 01:29 AM   #59
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Very nice!
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Old July 13th, 2009, 11:51 AM   #60
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It´s been a great surprise for me to find this thread, i had the idea that the HSL project in Portugal was totally stopped and blocked by the government but now i see those pics and i realize the it´s still U/C and doing great!

Congrats Portugal, that´s gonna be a real step forward to have a great comunication system in all the senses, first with your motorways and now with the railways!
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