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Old December 23rd, 2010, 08:10 PM   #101
437.001
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Hello, I have a question for the Portuguese forumers.
Is it true that CP plans to close the following lines?

-Funcheira-Beja
-Casa Branca-Evora
-Setil-Coruche
-Pinhal Novo-Beja
-Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira
-Torre das Vargens-Badajoz
-Ermesinde-Leça

Is it true?

It is an information which appeared in Spain in the via libre website.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #102
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Very nice!
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Old December 26th, 2010, 01:30 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Hello, I have a question for the Portuguese forumers.
Is it true that CP plans to close the following lines?

-Funcheira-Beja
-Casa Branca-Evora
-Setil-Coruche
-Pinhal Novo-Beja
-Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira
-Torre das Vargens-Badajoz
-Ermesinde-Leça

Is it true?

It is an information which appeared in Spain in the via libre website.


Yes, it is true. The intentions are to close not the lines but the commuter train service on that lines (in Portuguese: Regionais)!!!

For example, on the line "Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira" will still continue to circulate the Lusitania Train (Express Lisbon-Madrid)!!!!
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Old December 28th, 2010, 12:38 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
Yes, it is true. The intentions are to close not the lines but the commuter train service on that lines (in Portuguese: Regionais)!!!

For example, on the line "Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira" will still continue to circulate the Lusitania Train (Express Lisbon-Madrid)!!!!
And when will that happen?
Is it definitive or temporary?
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Old December 28th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
And when will that happen?

Somewhere in 2011 (maybe in the summer)!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Is it definitive or temporary?

They say it`s temporary....... to be definitive!!!
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Old March 8th, 2011, 02:52 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
You're missing out two points: Who guarantees that the line will be "full" for 40 years? And of course, you'll have to pay interest for the investment over a long time, and I'm pretty sure, that that is not included in your calculation.
Another thing: If you need money now to pay back bonds, you simply have to take it from somewhere - and, as I said, it's usually easier to cut from new infrastructure projects (which can be done a few years later as well) as from other sectors.
The two biggest consortiums running for the route concessions are:

a) Brisa ... wich (because its major shareholders are labelled as PSD-sided (a.k.a. oposition) spends most of their time under "socialist government" rebuilding their highway network ... not a single concession was won by Brisa under a Socialist government ... wich means that in the last 15 years they just "collected" thousands of milllions in €€€... and the only way to spend that money was ... rebuild the old network (as if a highway with 20 years was old).

The funniest thing is that while Brisa reaps some 1000 million €€€in proffits EACH AND EVERY YEAR and is not alowed to reinvest in building more highways(or any other kind of infraestructure for that matter) ... the state sponsored SCUT are all bankrupt (free highways that actually cost double per km than Brisa highwayis but that payment comoes directly from the state budget.

b) Mota-engil (a.k.a. ascendi) is the major competitor to Brisa's otherwise monopoly on the highway sector and guess ... has the ex. number two of PS as it's CEO (a good investment by Mr.Antonio Mota wich has no known particular afiliation to the Socialist Party).

c) Lusoponte is Ther third major player in the infraestructure business here ... they run both actual tejo Crossings (Vasco da Gama and 25 de Abril bridges) and seem to have already filled their safe full of €€€for the third one.


There is no actuall NEED for the state to spend a single €€€ in the HSR/highway networks ... they can be privatelly funded and paid in a relatively short period ... period.


If you look beyond the misleading oficial numbers you see some major conglomerates reaping INCREASINGLY HIGHER PROFFIT MARGINS as a consequence of the government squeezing the citizens for every dime of taxations that they can get their fat hands on.


i) the government doesn't stop their policies of building new regional hospitals (or other pricey infraestructure) (in PS held municipalities of course) ... even if for that they then close an old hospital in the same municipality ... and there are lot's of (non PS held municipalities) that continue withou hospital ... go figure where the deficit cames from.

ii) they cut the salaries by 5% and increase taxation by 5% ... and then wonder why their own total REVENUE has fallen ...

iii) theres some 200km of railways being modernized or otherwise built currently here every year ... that level of output puts the HSR network in a simple 4/5year timeframe (800km L network).




The portuguese public debth rise is a consequence of this government absolutelly astonishingly stupid behaviour ... too bad that nobody puts them out of their misery.

Quote:
Who guarantees that the line will be "full" for 40 years?
The route has some 5 million anual passengers nowadays (AlfaPendular + Intercity) ... there are in excess of 200 million €€€ of CLEAN ANUAL REVENUES just from the Lisboa-Porto route ... if one builds the HSR routes (and thus eliminating the bottleneck that is the packed northern line) the potential to double or even triple that yearly value is there.

Lisboa-Madrid alone could be reaping as much as 100 million €€€ just by EXISTING nowadays (the roundabound lusitania tren hotel is a joke and nothing else).

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Last edited by sotavento; March 8th, 2011 at 03:02 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 03:18 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Hello, I have a question for the Portuguese forumers.
Is it true that CP plans to close the following lines?

-Funcheira-Beja
-Casa Branca-Evora
-Setil-Coruche
-Pinhal Novo-Beja
-Abrantes-Torre das Vargens-Marvao Beira
-Torre das Vargens-Badajoz
-Ermesinde-Leça

Is it true?

It is an information which appeared in Spain in the via libre website.


Not "close the lines" ... "cut the regional passenger service".


The trains are old (Allan railcars) and have a very bad modernization put over them that didn't add a single bit of reliability to them ...


Ermesinde-Leça was an half assed atempt at creating a newer comuter route in Porto metropolitan area ... whatever they could have made wrong they did it to their hearts contempt ... yes ... contempt.

Setil-Coruche was another example of something that was meant to be a failure from the start ... another half assed job.

Lisboa-C.branca-Evora/Beja is going to be a new electrical/diesel regional/intercity route ... Lisboa-Evora will use renewed/remodeled UTE2240 units and Evora-C.Branca-Beja will use UDD0450 units as soon as the renovation works are complete.


the Beja-funcheira and Abrantes-Badaojz/Elvas/Marvão routes lack proper rollingstock availability ... so they will probably will be axed as soon as possible and a road haulage service will be maintained for some time (at maximum for the next 10 years or so).


Abrantes-Badajoz can be electrified in the near future ... also C.Branca-Beja-Ourique ... so things are in the grey area there.

Also the Ermesinde/Contumil-Leixões route seems to be under upgrade so the comuter can return to Matosinhos/leixões ... its a wait and see case.


If needs to be said that if things were done properly (As in not doing anyithing possible meant to close them) each of these routes could be viable as a comuter/regional route.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 7th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #108
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In U-turn, Portugal requests EU financial aid

Quote:
(Reuters) - Portugal's caretaker government said on Wednesday it had decided to seek financing from the European Union in an abrupt turnaround after resisting a bailout for months despite sharply deteriorating financial conditions.
....
Sorry sotavento, I guess any dreams for high speed rail in Portugal is busted for a very long time.
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Old April 8th, 2011, 01:35 AM   #109
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I hope they don't scrap everything.

They should postpone the big bridge for the moment and install a temporary station near Barreiro on the southern side of the Tejo. Finishing the high speed line between Barreiro and Badajoz passes rather flat terrain and is close to unpopulated so I don't think it is too expensive.
All other high speed lines, also the one between Lisbon and Porto can wait for the moment. The Pendolino works very well for the moment.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 10:17 PM   #110
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Sorry if this has been asked before but what's the situation with gauges in Portugal at the moment? I know it's all Iberian Gauge right now except for the narrow parts, but are there serious intentions to convert lines to standard gauge in the future?
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 11:23 PM   #111
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Certainly not before Spain converts some (or, better, all) of its lines until the border.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK Tom View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before but what's the situation with gauges in Portugal at the moment? I know it's all Iberian Gauge right now except for the narrow parts, but are there serious intentions to convert lines to standard gauge in the future?

There is no time table in Portugal!!!

I think that the only thing that is being made is that when a line is repared or constructed, it is prepare for in the future change for a standar gauge!!!


There is a line (Lousã Line » Coimbra Metropolitan Area) that is closed waiting for conversion to a Tram Line and to a standard gauge [Metro Mondego » Mondego Subway]!!
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Old August 18th, 2011, 06:28 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
In U-turn, Portugal requests EU financial aid



Sorry sotavento, I guess any dreams for high speed rail in Portugal is busted for a very long time.

Erm ... High speed Rail ???


they seem to be running daily since 1998 ???

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr




Notice that in the right side of the picture they are ACTUALLY building the southern exit of the Lisboa-Madrid HSR nowadays (see below).



But then again ... the REAL PROBLEM in the Lisboa-Madrid HSR is this one:



the railway under the main span of the Tagus bridge was built recently ... in iberic gauge.

And this is the terrain that must be crossed by the HSR:



It costs as much to build the initial 10km in the lisbon side as it costs to build the other 600km plus all the way to Madrid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK Tom View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before but what's the situation with gauges in Portugal at the moment? I know it's all Iberian Gauge right now except for the narrow parts, but are there serious intentions to convert lines to standard gauge in the future?
See this map ? It's a rough representation of the main tipe of sleepers used in the portuguese network:




RED =
- mainly iberian gauge monoblock concrete sleepers in saneated trackbeds (as in track rebuild from scratch)
- electrification 25kv50Hz
- 180-224 km/h line speed
(notice that 224km/h is only the top speed of the AlfaPendular trainsets and not the lines themselves)
- mostly double tracked (wider lines)

BLUE =
- mainly iberian gauge biblock concrete sleepers on un-saneated trackbeds
- electrified at 25kv50Hz
- 100-140 km/h line speeds (some sections at 160km/h do exist)

BLACK =
- mainly iberian gaugue biblock concrete sleepers
- not electrified (but most are scheduled to be in the near future)

GREEN =
- mainly BI-BITOLA(dual gauge) sleepers ... the last renovated sections are already conversion compatible

PINK =
- lines closed for renovation ... expected to be returned to service with bi-bitola sleepers.

YELLOW =
- projected new routes ... suposedly ALL to be built in UIC gauge






The Algarve line (the southern east-west route) has been upgraded with dual-gauge sleepers ever since they run out of old ex.north line bi-block sleepers.

The newer Alcacer Variant (The green I) and the Evora line (the green V) have dual-gauge sleepers also (they (re.)opened this year)

It is expected to be extended from Sines to Poceirão and from there to Evora and Badajoz in the near future ... with or without BAILOUTS ... it's just the MAIN iberian international route for whatever this matters ... so it will be built/converted all the way from Sines to the French Border.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; August 18th, 2011 at 06:33 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 10:11 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
But then again ... the REAL PROBLEM in the Lisboa-Madrid HSR is this one:
I don't think the bridge should be THE problem. Just build the high speed line form the border to somewhere near Vendas Novas and use gauge-convertable Spanish trains over the old Targus bridge.
Madrid-Lisbon would need maybe 3:30 instead of 2:45, but it would still be a vast step forward for Portugals accessibility from Europe.
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Old August 19th, 2011, 12:26 AM   #115
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Oriente-Entrecampos-Alvito = 15km in a north-south and then east-west direction ... it should be west-east instead and that would have put things on the other margin of the Tagus river already on it's way to Poceirão .

Add another 35km of roundabound route in "margem sul" (astonishingly most of that at 200km/h) and another 15km to get to Poceirão.

Direct route = 10km long 2000 million €€€€ bridge + 20km of "pure bred" 350km/h HSR = ~7/10 minutes of travel time

"Remedeios" route = 65km of not so fast roundabound = ~40 minutes of sightseeing

Poceirão-VendasNovas-Evora = VN-Evora is set at 190km/h for "conventional" rolingstock ... they just decided to NOT give it a 200km/h(or more) just to claim that the neighbouring HSR is needed.

If they decide to apply the same principles of the Alfa Pendular in the Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid route they just need to build the 68km between Ciladas(north of Evora) and Elvas ... most of the rest is already at 200km/h

Some sections could probably be at some acceptable speed's of 250km/h without that much trouble? since it is mainly the freight route that is of interest being a 200/250/300/350 km/h HSR is not that important ... .

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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old August 19th, 2011, 01:22 AM   #116
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Preliminary Works in the Oriente station in lisboa

Traincare depot and southern acesses



A nortbound prespective of the Oriente station ...



Recovering the slopes to create the aditional 2 HSR trackbeds and the traincare depot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luís Raposo Alves View Post
A QUADRUPLICAÇÃO DA LINHA DE CINTURA - PARTE 1





























































































































































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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; August 19th, 2011 at 01:28 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 02:17 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
In U-turn, Portugal requests EU financial aid



Sorry sotavento, I guess any dreams for high speed rail in Portugal is busted for a very long time.

Alcaçer Bypass








Vendas Novas- Evora <<a section of the Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid conventional route is already upgraded to 200+ speeds

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmfaZtodGMI[/video]
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; April 15th, 2013 at 12:19 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #118
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200/228 km/h running
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:56 AM   #119
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How is the prognostic for a Spanish border (Badajoz) - Lisboa HSL?

What is the condition of the line today?
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Old July 7th, 2013, 04:12 AM   #120
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How is the prognostic for a Spanish border (Badajoz) - Lisboa HSL?

What is the condition of the line today?

Portugal: No money, no line
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