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Old December 29th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #141
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nice but too big for a small town as evora ??


Portuguese megalomania... That's why we bankrupt...
I'm glad that the high-speed project (as it is) never started, otherwise we probably could have ended up worse than Greece...
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Old December 29th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #142
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in spain we also have megalomania ,
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Old December 29th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #143
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Portuguese megalomania... That's why we bankrupt...
I'm glad that the high-speed project (as it is) never started, otherwise we probably could have ended up worse than Greece...
Heey, we became bankrupt WITHOUT building High Speed Rail We did built lots of useless sports infrastructure for the Olympics and highways through the mountains that connect small towns

Joking aside, HSR between Lisbon and Porto would be completely useless for such a short stretch, but a connection to Madrid could have some sense, though the passenger estimates I've seen are not particularly high.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 11:14 AM   #144
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International HSR routes are rarely able to generate huge passenger numbers. It's just that there aren't enough people who want/need to go from Madrid to Lisbon by whatever mode of transportation.

If funding allows I'd build a 200 km/h line (much cheaper) to connect with the line Spain has built to Badajoz. That would make some sense given that has been done already in that corridor.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 02:59 AM   #145
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Heey, we became bankrupt WITHOUT building High Speed Rail We did built lots of useless sports infrastructure for the Olympics and highways through the mountains that connect small towns

Joking aside, HSR between Lisbon and Porto would be completely useless for such a short stretch, but a connection to Madrid could have some sense, though the passenger estimates I've seen are not particularly high.
Yes, unfortunately the Olympics were some big expense, you could have spent that money on a HSR instead

Actually, I belive that the only line that makes more sense is Porto -Lisbon. The HSR would struggle to compete with the low cost airliners, between Lisbon and Madrid...
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Old December 31st, 2014, 11:19 AM   #146
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The thing with Lisbon and Porto is that the distance is relatively short, to the degree where I don't think the extra speed will bring significant benefits, as the Alfa Pendular is already the fastest way to travel between the two cities. If there is a need for reduction of the travel time there could be an Express service between the two cities first.

For Madrid, I agree that there is not a great business case as it is now. One thing I have noticed though is that Madrid is becoming the business capital of Iberia, as it's at its center, with many multinational companies having their regional headquarters there and leaving small offices in Lisbon. If it's a trend that will stay, it could mean a further growth in business travelers. But as it is now, a standard rail connection that will serve mostly cargo makes more sense and can help Lisbon compete more for freight from and to Spain.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 06:15 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by VITORIA MAN View Post
nice but too big for a small town as evora ??
Looks bigger than it actually is.

Just compare with Camp de Tarragona or Segovia-Guiomar stations in Spain, which are two airport-sized stations. This is much smaller.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 06:20 PM   #148
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Yes, unfortunately the Olympics were some big expense, you could have spent that money on a HSR instead

Actually, I belive that the only line that makes more sense is Porto -Lisbon. The HSR would struggle to compete with the low cost airliners, between Lisbon and Madrid...
+1

Yes sure, but a HSR to connect Porto to Madrid is as eficient as the southern link.

There is an absolute reality in transport field from the train was discovered the speed has beed doubled each generation. This is very rare in transport car always kept same speed and planes decreased since Concorde stopped.

V160 was the speed of the last 30 years ..
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Old January 1st, 2015, 07:37 PM   #149
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Yes sure, but a HSR to connect Porto to Madrid is as eficient as the southern link.
On the map, and looking at the population of both Madrid and Porto, one would say yes.

The problem comes when you know that the passenger numbers between Madrid and both Porto and Lisbon is not very high.
Moreover, the regions in between (Beira Alta and Castile & Leon) have a rather low population density.
Of course the current classic lines don't help in the slightest due to their horrible travel times, but anyway, we doubt that any of the two could see a drastic change in patronage. Of course it would improve, but not to the level of routes such as Barcelona-Madrid or Barcelona-Alicante.

On the other hand, Porto to Vigo sees its numbers rise, and the electrification of the missing link Nine-Valença-Guillarei is planned. Being able to extend some Porto-Vigo services to both Lisbon and Corunna, as electrified high-speed Alvia/Alfa Pendular-like services, could be a real boost to the traffic on the Atlantic Iberian corridor, since that is rather populated on both sides of the border, and that is precisely where interchange between Spain and Portugal is the most intense.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 07:54 PM   #150
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On the map, and looking at the population of both Madrid and Porto, one would say yes.

The problem comes when you know that the passenger numbers between Madrid and both Porto and Lisbon is not very high.
Moreover, the regions in between (Beira Alta and Castile & Leon) have a rather low population density.
Of course the current classic lines don't help in the slightest due to their horrible travel times, but anyway, we doubt that any of the two could see a drastic change in patronage. Of course it would improve, but not to the level of routes such as Barcelona-Madrid or Barcelona-Alicante.

On the other hand, Porto to Vigo sees its numbers rise, and the electrification of the missing link Nine-Valença-Guillarei is planned. Being able to extend some Porto-Vigo services to both Lisbon and Corunna, as electrified high-speed Alvia/Alfa Pendular-like services, could be a real boost to the traffic on the Atlantic Iberian corridor, since that is rather populated on both sides of the border, and that is precisely where interchange between Spain and Portugal is the most intense.
Euh.. i was bad in geography but i display this map to fix the ideas:




This map is for highways how is possible for a person to stop Eurolines or let his car in the garage and take the train ?

Of course the train worked when there was no highways..

The only manner to take train popular is to have a trip 2 or 3 times lower than by car.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 07:55 PM   #151
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Perhaps the pendolino like in Poland can help decrease the trip : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=133

How many hours by car from Porto to Madrid and how much by train?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 08:21 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Battuta View Post


Perhaps the pendolino like in Poland can help decrease the trip : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=133

How many hours by car from Porto to Madrid and how much by train?
By car: 5h16

By train: 9h40 (having lucky) »» click here
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Old January 1st, 2015, 08:48 PM   #153
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According to the economical-financial studies produced at 2004 (if i`m not mistake), i think that the HSL Lisbon-Porto would be the only one to give profit at the long run, the problem was that it was the more expensible (4,5 MM€), with a travel time of 1h15 and a estimated demand of 12,2 Million people/year (2004 study)!!



The HSL between Lisbon-Madrid according to the same studies will be near the point of given profit, it would be the easier to construct (because it passes on a flat zone»Alentejo region), the time travel would be 2h45, the investment would be 3,8 MM€ and with a and estimated demand of 9,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!


This line was always the priority by the portuguese politicians, because it was the easiest/fastest to construct and because it would connect the capitals!!



The third priority line would be Porto-Vigo it would cost 1,4 MM€ with a travel time of 1h00 and a estimated demand of 3,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!

The problem with this line is that connects two regions not very much prioritized by the respective central goverments!!
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Old January 1st, 2015, 08:56 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
By car: 5h16

By train: 9h40 (having lucky) »» click here
It will probably be down to 5-6 h when all the HSR infrastructure in Spain is finished, but still this seems to me more of a flying destination.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 09:03 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
By car: 5h16

By train: 9h40 (having lucky) »» click here

10 hours 's too much



Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
According to the economical-financial studies produced at 2004 (if i`m not mistake), i think that the HSL Lisbon-Porto would be the only one to give profit at the long run, the problem was that it was the more expensible (4,5 MM€), with a travel time of 1h15 and a estimated demand of 12,2 Million people/year (2004 study)!!



The HSL between Lisbon-Madrid according to the same studies will be near the point of given profit, it would be the easier to construct (because it passes on a flat zone»Alentejo region), the time travel would be 2h45, the investment would be 3,8 MM€ and with a and estimated demand of 9,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!


This line was always the priority by the portuguese politicians, because it was the easiest/fastest to construct and because it would connect the capitals!!



The third priority line would be Porto-Vigo it would cost 1,4 MM€ with a travel time of 1h00 and a estimated demand of 3,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!

The problem with this line is that connects two regions not very much prioritized by the respective central goverments!!

If the actual rail is UIC from Porto to Lisbon i think the best thing to do will be a HSR line Coimbra-Madrid which can be ensured in 1h45

After Coimbra the same TAV can continue in V160
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Old January 1st, 2015, 09:10 PM   #156
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It will probably be down to 5-6 h when all the HSR infrastructure in Spain is finished, but still this seems to me more of a flying destination.

Madrid-Coimbra is not so long it can be done in 1h30






The HSR Paris-Bordeaux (600 km) will be ensured in 2h when Tours-Bordeaux will be finished next year
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Old January 1st, 2015, 09:24 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battuta View Post
10 hours 's too much
All working well, portuguese trains transfers can be sometimes and adventure!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Battuta View Post
If the actual rail is UIC from Porto to Lisbon
The actual rail between Porto and Lisbon is with iberian gauge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Battuta View Post
i think the best thing to do will be a HSR line Coimbra-Madrid which can be ensured in 1h45

After Coimbra the same TAV can continue in V160
At the time of discussion of HSL (and eeven today), there was a lot of discussion in Portugal because of that.


There were two ideas:

1) Lisbon-Madrid by Coimbra that was supported by the people of the northern/center regions of Portugal but it would be expensible because the terrain is very hilly;


2)Lisbon-Madrid by Évora

The second was chosen because it was the fastest for the people from Lisbon, it was easiest to construct, is would also be the fastest to construct, it would pass near the future Lisbon international airport and along the HSL it would be construct a third freight line in iberian gauge conecting the Sines Harbour (biggest portuguese harbour) to Évora»Spain»and the rest of Europe.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 10:09 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battuta View Post
Euh.. i was bad in geography but i display this map to fix the ideas:




This map is for highways how is possible for a person to stop Eurolines or let his car in the garage and take the train ?
Even with a good line the patronage would not be very high, even though it would obviously improve its current numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
By car: 5h16

By train: 9h40 (having lucky) »» click here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It will probably be down to 5-6 h when all the HSR infrastructure in Spain is finished, but still this seems to me more of a flying destination.
Are you considering a Madrid-Porto via Salamanca-Pampilhosa, via Évora-Lisbon, or via Vigo-Viana?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
According to the economical-financial studies produced at 2004 (if i`m not mistake), i think that the HSL Lisbon-Porto would be the only one to give profit at the long run, the problem was that it was the more expensible (4,5 MM€), with a travel time of 1h15 and a estimated demand of 12,2 Million people/year (2004 study)!!

The HSL between Lisbon-Madrid according to the same studies will be near the point of given profit, it would be the easier to construct (because it passes on a flat zone»Alentejo region), the time travel would be 2h45, the investment would be 3,8 MM€ and with a and estimated demand of 9,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!
This line was always the priority by the portuguese politicians, because it was the easiest/fastest to construct and because it would connect the capitals!!

The third priority line would be Porto-Vigo it would cost 1,4 MM€ with a travel time of 1h00 and a estimated demand of 3,4 Million people/year (2004 study)!!
The problem with this line is that connects two regions not very much prioritized by the respective central goverments!!
What about a Madrid-Porto via Vigo?
Remember that the construction is advancing, and that Madrid-Vigo will not take very long. Then, through Vigo-Porto, once electrified, it would give an acceptable travel time, connecting better NW Spain to N Portugal.
Of course Salamanca wouldn't benefit of it, but with the bends of the Beira Alta line, there's little they can do...
Moreover, the area of Salamanca/Guarda is far less populated, and an Alvia linking Madrid to Porto via Vigo would also give a good connection to Viana, Braga, Barcelos and Guimarães.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battuta View Post
If the actual rail is UIC from Porto to Lisbon i think the best thing to do will be a HSR line Coimbra-Madrid which can be ensured in 1h45
That's useless. It would be quite expensive and Spain is already building the HSL to Badajoz and the HSL to Vigo.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 10:44 PM   #159
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Are you considering a Madrid-Porto via Salamanca-Pampilhosa, via Évora-Lisbon, or via Vigo-Viana?
I was thinking via Vigo and Santiago after Galicia HS line is finished, but now I checked and realised that I was too optimistic about getting from Porto to Santiago in 2.5 h. Particularly considering change of station in Vigo. It could be done with a car though, so in principle some modest further improvements might deliver that travel time.

Which route do you think will be the fastest five years from now?
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Old January 1st, 2015, 11:22 PM   #160
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All working well, portuguese trains transfers can be sometimes and adventure!! The actual rail between Porto and Lisbon is with iberian gauge...
Ah ok, so dificult to do like in Germany or France then.
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