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Old July 14th, 2008, 04:40 AM   #141
Benjuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
Poverty by percentage by country:
Out of interest, do you have similar figures that include South Africa, Brazil and Mexico - it would make an interesting comparrison. Also, how are they defining 'poverty' on that graph. I used to visit people in England who were classified as living below the poverty line but still had enough money to buy alcohol, smoke, and have satelite tv, had free(ish) healthcare and education for their kids, etc.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 05:20 AM   #142
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johannesburg has an appalling crime rate and i've heard that there is discrimination against white due to a transformation policy

that said, the world cup will hopefully clean some of thees things up as well as expedite economic growth..
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Old July 14th, 2008, 05:40 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
Poverty by percentage by country:

The "poor" in the USA are very different from poor people in Mexico, South Africa, Brazil, etc;

The USA's "poor" make about 30,000 a year, have their own home, have a car, have cable tv and actually have some disposable income.

The poor in the other countries struggle day to day just to survive.

Most of my life I lived below the "poverty" level, but yet I never had to worry about having enough food and water.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 07:02 AM   #144
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Where did I get the thing about the British Army doctors using South African violence as a way of training up it's quacks. Well I spent time in South Africa and met a lot of army surgeons from the UK getting trained up in 'battle scenarios'.

Johanesburg has more weapon related injuries and deaths than you get in war zones.

As for parts of the US which had staggeringly poor persons which shocked me as I thought the US was a wealthy nation, obviously some people do not share. I saw it in most major cities. LA shocked be the most. It was the closest I had seen to what you get in Soweto, just near Johanesburg in S.A. It left me very shaken and disgusted. I'd never want to live in America, a country that discards it's own like that is outrageous. It reminded me of that Blade Runner city.

What I don't get about Americans, is they are always 'praising God', and 'thanking God for making me win this Oscar...' or 'scoring in some game' yet they have this fuck-you attitude to the down and outers.
I wouldn't Judge the whole US be LA. That would be like summing up all of Europe by a broke neighborhood in Moscow. That city has issues, highest homeless rate in the country, big crime issues, Hollywood, ect.
If you're in California go to San Diego or San Fransisco.

As for the whole praise god for making me win this thing, that bothers alot of us (me included) too. I don't know if it happens much in other countries (especially the more religious ones outside of Europe?) But for alot of athletes it seems to be lip service, and sort of what you say during the interview, almost like they were coached, or practiced it. Also the US tends to be more religious than western Europe, not saying thats good or bad, but statistically speaking most black, latino, and rural white Americans are practicing members of a religion (typically Christian).
I also Have the feeling that some churches (especially the megachurches) have very distorted view of the bible, a very individualistic, me first sort of view, with millionaire preachers and only deal with abortion gay marriage and prayer in school, while disregarding the important parts of the bible's message charity, caring for those in need, caring for the planet ect. It's not many churches, but it's a number of the big evangelical protestant ones.

Anyway maybe you get the chance you could try going to places like Seattle, Portland, New York, Austin tx, Boston, ect and see if your perception of the US doesn't change a little. And hey with the exchange rate as bad (or in your case good) as it is, why not
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Old July 14th, 2008, 07:29 AM   #145
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The problem in San Diego is nobody hablo en anglaise(or however you say it)!
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Old July 14th, 2008, 07:43 AM   #146
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Englais I think. Anyway back to the thread it's probably too short notice for Australia to get enough venues above the requisite 40,000, good at the top issues at the bottom. I'll still say Spain, England and the US for the three likely back ups, but no one really knows what is going on in Sepp Blatter's mind.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:04 AM   #147
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The problem in San Diego is nobody hablo en anglaise(or however you say it)!
...what?

and its inglés
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Old July 14th, 2008, 06:52 PM   #148
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Note: I'm threadjacking to clarify information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
Aha:
Poverty by percentage by country:
So, you're using an arbitrary table with no proper identification or measurables, without substantiating it's source or authenticity, and citing that as the basis for your argument? Remind me not to use you as my lawyer.

Unless you properly qualify your evidence I could just as easily take the same table and call it "Total Volume of Peanut Butter Consumed, by Country" and it would read just as valid. Come to think of it, based on the information I've seen (see below) my definition might even prove more correct for this table.

Quote:
What I don't get about Americans, is they are always 'praising God', and 'thanking God for making me win this Oscar...' or 'scoring in some game' yet they have this fuck-you attitude to the down and outers.
I think you're mistaking the celebrity culture for that of the average American. Julia Roberts' reactions to winning an Oscar are hardly a fair barometer for how the remaining 300+ million residents regard the less fortunate. Consider that, when including religious institutions, the US gives THE most money to charitable organizations in the world, both in volume and as a % of GNP.

Also, please don't forget the blending of ideologies at work. Americans are for the most part still capitalistic, so charity will only be allowed to go so far before society turns to the individual and expects them to fulfill some level of accountability. True, some households still persist on welfare, but hardly to the excessive levels available in other countries. Thus, while poverty is not a communal goal, neither is socialism. If you fail to contribute by choice, you run the risk of falling behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain1974
Many of the larger US cities, especially in my experience, Chicago/Detroit and New Orleans (pre-Katrina) have large tracts of poor housing with very high levels of unemployment that can understandably be equated to the 3rd world.
The impoverished will gather in cities for obvious reasons: Access to most charity organizations, welfare and medicare support, etc. And as participants of this forum should know social forces will see the bulk of a community seek to live apart from the poor (suburban flight), thus leading to default concentrations poor people. There are ghettos and bleak areas in most major cities, but suggestions this is a majority, or even a disproportionate minority of the US population would be incorrect. According to the US Census Bureau the poverty rate in the US has mostly risen since 9/11 to a 2006 measure of 12.3%. This includes a notable volume of illegal aliens and single-elderly on fixed incomes, which, to put it bluntly, is not indicative of the "average US household."

Are there poor in the US? Absolutely, and we're trying to do a great deal about it. But the nation is still among the global leaders in terms of GNP and standards of living, and despite current tax policy is unlikely to ever sink dangerously low in that regard.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 10:26 PM   #149
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Does anyone else wonder what this has to do with the topic?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:26 PM   #150
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I think it´s more due to SA inability to organize the event rather than natural disaster.
We've suddenly become an incapable nation. Even if we hosted the rugby world cup as a new democracy in 1995. Hosted the best cricket world cup ever and the african cup of nations in 1996. The entire aggressive and strategic bidding plan was put in place towards hosting a mega-event of this scale.

South Africa hosts major rugby and football teams regularly without incident. Organizes major conferences and events. Next week Manchster United play in the country. Our security blueprint is used at all UN summits.

The one moment we're good enough and the next we've suddenly
collapsed.

Unfortunately the rumours and headlines won't end until 11 June 2010 BUT I'd rather we have our stadia ready 1 year before the event along with airports and infrastructure. It is after all the reality that counts.

Nobody seemed to moan that Beijing had its Olympic stadium ready only 4 months before the opening. 9 out of 10 stadia in South Africa will be ready 1 year before the 2010 kick off.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #151
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I don't mind back up proposals but at least be sensible enough to propose back up countries that have 8 40,000 seat venues ready tomorrow. Please don't propose dairy farmers hicks village stadium in townsville and expect anybody to take you seriously. If South Africa needs back up venues, it has Newlands, Kings Park and others already in existence

Mexico as a back up is laughable. Ideally the back up host should have venues that meet FIFA requirements.

FIFA's back ups are Germany, England and USA, even if Blatter has not even had the decency to contact these nations to discuss being a back up.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 11:47 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post
We've suddenly become an incapable nation.
I agree, the hype has been rather silly. I'm betting it's mainly a publicity ploy to get the contractors back on track. I wonder if there are any money-squabbles going on right now that we're not privvy to?

Quote:
Hosted the best cricket world cup ever...
I'm not sure this is something to be proud of...

JK
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Nobody seemed to moan that Beijing had its Olympic stadium ready only 4 months before the opening.
*raises hand*

I also didn't think it should go there to begin with, but apparently FIFA and the IOC don't rate my opinion very highly. Pity.
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I don't mind back up proposals but at least be sensible enough to propose back up countries that have 8 40,000 seat venues ready tomorrow.
Agree. The precedence for these things is to return to a recent host, if the scheduling permits. Again, I suspect this is publicity playing out, and presumably hype from the fine folks in Mexico.
Quote:
Mexico as a back up is laughable.
Careful. Seeing as we're trying to deflect the critical comments away from SA, it'd be impolite to do so by simply launching criticisms at someone else.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post

I'm not sure this is something to be proud of...
England were the hosts in 1999. It is something to be proud of, considering it was still the best after Windies 2007.

The criticizm regarding Mexican stadia not meeting FIFA requirements is fact not impolite.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #154
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Quote:
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England were the hosts in 1999. It is something to be proud of, considering it was still the best after Windies 2007.
My sarcasm was directed towards cricket in general, not SA. Just trying to add some levity.

Quote:
The criticizm regarding Mexican stadia not meeting FIFA requirements is fact not impolite.
Using the term "laughable" comes off as impolite when one could simply say they don't meet all the criteria. You're painting a picture that every venue will be inadequate when in reality they'll simply lack the volume of necessary 40k facilities.

Just saying, what's good for the goose...

Cheers.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:14 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
My sarcasm was directed towards cricket in general, not SA. Just trying to add some levity.

Using the term "laughable" comes off as impolite when one could simply say they don't meet all the criteria. You're painting a picture that every venue will be inadequate when in reality they'll simply lack the volume of necessary 40k facilities.

Just saying, what's good for the goose...

Cheers.
Well I apologize.

I just think that being a back up host is a serious serious serious thing especially if its organizing the worlds greatest sporting event in a year or less.Thats certainly no laughing matter.

good luck to Mexico on a 2018 bid.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:06 AM   #156
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South Africa's stadia will wipe the floor with Mexico's by 2010. The country doesn't need another World Cup. USA will get the WC before it without doubt.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:39 AM   #157
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uhmhhh, shouldn't this thread be changed to: Our poor is better than your poor!!?

STICK TO THE TOPIC OF STADIA, girls!!!
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:44 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post

Nobody seemed to moan that Beijing had its Olympic stadium ready only 4 months before the opening.
Actually, that is perfect timing for a new stadium. That way, it can be ready for the national trials, get into Ceremonies rehearsals, and then BAM!! straight into the Games without the need for refurbishment or a new coat of paint.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 04:35 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post
Well I apologize.

I just think that being a back up host is a serious serious serious thing especially if its organizing the worlds greatest sporting event in a year or less.Thats certainly no laughing matter.

good luck to Mexico on a 2018 bid.
They've managed to do it on short notice before in '86 despite suffering from a major earthquake just a year prior. They've hosted in my opinion 2 of the greatest world cups (1970 with Pele and 1986 with Maradonna ), have a lucrative domestic league. adequete stadiums, stability, a great soccer culture, and decent infrastructure. In fact I'd say they're in a much better position to host it then SA. And besides 2018 is going to England and 2022 to the US
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Old July 15th, 2008, 04:40 AM   #160
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Been to Mexico, it is too dangerous for travellers.

As a back up to S.A. You have to pick a 1st world nation.

Canada, Oz, England, etc.. (not the USA, I was shocked at how many poor people they have and had trouble distinguishing it from Mexico). For a nation that harps on about how religious it is, I think they have trouble distinguishing their worship of money to that of a God.

Personally I don't think somewhere like S.A. should be hosting World Cups and spending valuable resources when they should be spending the money on housing projects, education and welfare.

To give you an idea how nasty things are in S.A. The British Army sends their doctors there in order to get 'battle prepared.'

It is purely political having it in S.A.
If the US isn't a first world nation then I dk what the hell your definition of one is.
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