daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 29th, 2014, 06:42 AM   #2321
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21255

Nice videos!

May I give you a suggestion: when posting, it is much easier to browse on tablets if you split videos in different posts, so that there are no more than 2 videos per post.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 8th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #2322
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

They are doing a trial with new signage in Belgium, upward arrows instead of downward arrows. It has been tested extensively in the Netherlands and it shows an improvement in traffic flow, especially around the edges of rush hour. It can reduce the length of rush hour by approximately 30 minutes at some locations. The upward arrows make it more clear what the situation ahead is.



__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Klausenburg, Suburbanist, devo liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #2323
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

Another reason that was mentioned in that news item (Dutch) was that the upward arrows make people feel like they have more time to get into the correct lane than with downward arrows, which reduces the hasty (and thus risky) manoeuvres.

Also, the 30 minutes reduction information is based on what was discovered in the Netherlands. I personally think the difference won't be as big in Belgium, but I am quite convinced that it will have at least some effect.
__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #2324
Klausenburg
Registered User
 
Klausenburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cluj/Kolozsvar/Klausenburg
Posts: 2,915
Likes (Received): 3781

[IMG]http://i61.************/2ebdcf8.jpg[/IMG]

Source
__________________

Batavier, Suburbanist, Moravian liked this post
Klausenburg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #2325
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,377
Likes (Received): 748

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Another reason that was mentioned in that news item (Dutch) was that the upward arrows make people feel like they have more time to get into the correct lane than with downward arrows, which reduces the hasty (and thus risky) manoeuvres.

Also, the 30 minutes reduction information is based on what was discovered in the Netherlands. I personally think the difference won't be as big in Belgium, but I am quite convinced that it will have at least some effect.
It sounds really surprising, wouldn't most rush hour traffic know the road already and ignore signage completely?

Hopefully they won't get rid of the fun plastic back-lit signs though :P
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #2326
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It sounds really surprising, wouldn't most rush hour traffic know the road already and ignore signage completely?[...]
I think that roughly 80% of the cars in rush hour traffic are already used to the road indeed. But at this location, the road layout was changed a short while ago and it's possible that some people haven't noticed this yet or are afraid to make use of it.

This post in the Belgian forums shows that new road layout (the main difference can be seen at the top of the image):
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpV View Post
Voor die wijziging van de belijning, zie scenario 1 uit dit document voor meer uitleg over de aanpassing: http://www.verkeerscentrum.be/pdf/ra...O-ANZ-v1-1.pdf

Vergelijking met vorige en huidige situatie:

Also, this is what the previous signs looked like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
[...] Overigens, dit is wat er tot voor kort stond:

In my opinion, if there is any decrease in traffic jams at that point, I think a lot can be contributed to the new road layout and less to the upward pointing arrows. The upward pointing arrows do make it easier to show the situation further on. In theory you can also show whether a lane can be used for going straight and to the right with a downward arrow, but it doesn't really feel right like that.

To prove my point, I've quickly turned the arrows around on that previously posted image. It just "doesn't feel right" to me.

__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #2327
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

The new arrows are advertised as a huge congestion reliever (some suggesting that an individual traveler would gain 30 minutes on a single trip), but they're going to be disappointed. Congestion will remain, no matter what the arrows indicate. But it will help around the edges of rush hour, where traffic volumes taper off and congestion solves a bit earlier and commences a bit later.

The new signs are not a watershed event in reducing traffic congestion.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #2328
Meurisse
Architect-Urbanist
 
Meurisse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Antwerp
Posts: 18,268
Likes (Received): 4822

Last weekend on A12 (Brussels-Antwerp) at Londerzeel:

__________________
***www.antwerpenhogerop.be***

Klausenburg, Luki_SL, Suburbanist liked this post
Meurisse está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #2329
Wapper
Moderator
 
Wapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp(en)
Posts: 2,178
Likes (Received): 6638

The arrows pointing upward make more sense, I guess, but I don't think I ever had trouble to interpret the old ones. I find it hard to believe that this change will make a noticeable difference. But of course, the researchers will know better than I
Wapper no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:57 AM   #2330
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

They also changed the configuration with an exiting taper to A12. You cannot sign those with the traditional downward arrows.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 10:02 AM   #2331
Natomasken
Registered User
 
Natomasken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: La Center, Washington
Posts: 140
Likes (Received): 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They are doing a trial with new signage in Belgium, upward arrows instead of downward arrows. It has been tested extensively in the Netherlands and it shows an improvement in traffic flow, especially around the edges of rush hour. It can reduce the length of rush hour by approximately 30 minutes at some locations. The upward arrows make it more clear what the situation ahead is.



I really like the use of the up-arrows on this type of sign. I think the main advantage of them is they clearly show - with a single arrow - when one lane can be used for two directions (called an option lane in the US). I don't think option lanes are too common in Europe but they're very common in the US. Up arrows also better show the direction to be followed ahead (left, right, straight). A down arrow can't show this, it can only show which lane to be in.

It's harder to depict an option lane with down arrows while only displaying one arrow per lane, as is preferred (although see one good method below). It's been common to use two down arrows for option lanes, but the US FHwA thinks this is confusing (but if done right I think it can work OK, see example below).

Use of up arrows was sanctioned a few years ago by FHwA, but only for situations with option lanes. Without option lanes, only down arrows are allowed (which I don't agree with, I'd like to see up arrows in both cases, for consistency). A couple of examples are shown below.

I think this does a good job of depicting option lanes while still using only one arrow per lane. I think it's clear that the second and third lanes each can access two directions. This is not a common sign design, I've just seen a few like this in various places.


I also think that two arrows for one lane works OK if it's formatted well like this, with the two arrows closely placed.


Here's a couple of the newer type up arrow signs from my area.

__________________
Places I've driven:
North America: All US states except AK, ND, and SD; Canadian provinces of AB, BC, ON, and QC
Europe: AT, BE, CH, CZ, DE, DK, FR, HU (barely and by mistake); IT, LI, LU, NL, NO, SE, SK, and UK
Australia: ACT, NSW, VIC
Roadnerd over 40 years!

Last edited by Natomasken; April 20th, 2014 at 09:06 PM. Reason: to correct the wording of a caption
Natomasken no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 12:41 PM   #2332
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

An option lane is slightly different from a taper, although they work pretty much the same. An option lane splits into two equal directions, whereas a taper branches off while the other lane goes straight through.

I'm not sure if Belgium has option lanes. Tapers are very common in the Netherlands, but is used less in other areas.

A taper:

taper-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

An option lane:

IMG_6587 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


IMG_6588 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Glodenox liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 06:40 PM   #2333
piotr71
Registered User
 
piotr71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Beskidy
Posts: 4,300

E34, Antwerpen.

Filmed in February, so before gantries changed.

__________________

joshsam, Kanadzie, Moravian, Suburbanist liked this post
piotr71 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #2334
Natomasken
Registered User
 
Natomasken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: La Center, Washington
Posts: 140
Likes (Received): 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
An option lane is slightly different from a taper, although they work pretty much the same. An option lane splits into two equal directions, whereas a taper branches off while the other lane goes straight through.

I'm not sure if Belgium has option lanes. Tapers are very common in the Netherlands, but is used less in other areas.

A taper:

taper-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

An option lane:

IMG_6587 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


IMG_6588 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
I guess what we call an option lane in the US is what you'd call a taper (the main difference is that we don't extend the exit-lane markings all the way to the gore point). What you show in the pics from DK is uncommon here (where the lane splits into two full-width lanes prior to the gore) and probably wouldn't be marked with an up-arrow (at least from my reading of the MUTCD it wouldn't, although there's no example of this type of configuration).

It's interesting, I recently got a copy of the German guidelines for autobahn guide signs (RWBA), and they show an example of a taper marked exactly like the the NL one in your picture, but the guide signs are exactly the same as for a normal exit without a taper. There's nothing in advance to tell the driver an exit from the second lane is possible. This surprises me, I'd expect better from the Germans.
__________________
Places I've driven:
North America: All US states except AK, ND, and SD; Canadian provinces of AB, BC, ON, and QC
Europe: AT, BE, CH, CZ, DE, DK, FR, HU (barely and by mistake); IT, LI, LU, NL, NO, SE, SK, and UK
Australia: ACT, NSW, VIC
Roadnerd over 40 years!
Natomasken no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:33 PM   #2335
joshsam
JR
 
joshsam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sint-Truiden
Posts: 7,165
Likes (Received): 5408

I have the feeling that on most Belgian highwas exits are all one lane wich usually takes up the hard shoulder for 100 meters before turning off and then splitting into two lanes or more for differend directions. On these highways the lane number of the highway itself stays constant.(Like the E40 or E313)

While on highways like the E314, you have 3 lanes on the section between Leuven and Lummen. But the slowest third lane is the exit lane. Meaning that afther an exit the highway changes to 2 lanes and becomes 3 again afther an on ramp.
joshsam no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 10:33 AM   #2336
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,418
Likes (Received): 2083

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
It's interesting, I recently got a copy of the German guidelines for autobahn guide signs (RWBA), and they show an example of a taper marked exactly like the the NL one in your picture, but the guide signs are exactly the same as for a normal exit without a taper. There's nothing in advance to tell the driver an exit from the second lane is possible.
There are many examples like this in Germany. Most of the traffic use the right lane there whereby there are "little congestions" (<100km/h for some hundreds of meters in front of the exit) on the right lane only. Not many people are using the left (taper) lane where you can drive quite fast. The problem is, that you don't recognize why the traffic is so slow on the right lane wherefore many people - also I - are using the right lane too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
This surprises me, I'd expect better from the Germans.
No, just stupid Germans.......
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 12:24 PM   #2337
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21255

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
I guess what we call an option lane in the US is what you'd call a taper (the main difference is that we don't extend the exit-lane markings all the way to the gore point). What you show in the pics from DK is uncommon here (where the lane splits into two full-width lanes prior to the gore) and probably wouldn't be marked with an up-arrow (at least from my reading of the MUTCD it wouldn't, although there's no example of this type of configuration).
This is still better than signs reading "RIGHT LANE MUST TURN RIGHT" or "RIGHT LANE MUST EXIT".
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 03:36 AM   #2338
De Klauw
Registered User
 
De Klauw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,107
Likes (Received): 2455

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsam View Post
I have the feeling that on most Belgian highwas exits are all one lane wich usually takes up the hard shoulder for 100 meters before turning off and then splitting into two lanes or more for differend directions. On these highways the lane number of the highway itself stays constant.(Like the E40 or E313)

While on highways like the E314, you have 3 lanes on the section between Leuven and Lummen. But the slowest third lane is the exit lane. Meaning that afther an exit the highway changes to 2 lanes and becomes 3 again afther an on ramp.
This is the Belgian version of a taper like the one in Almelo in Chris' post. Here's an other one. So I think it's quite common.

Last edited by De Klauw; April 23rd, 2014 at 03:43 AM.
De Klauw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 09:43 AM   #2339
Natomasken
Registered User
 
Natomasken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: La Center, Washington
Posts: 140
Likes (Received): 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
This is the Belgian version of a taper like the one in Almelo in Chris' post. Here's an other one. So I think it's quite common.
One thing that's different here from the NL taper shown in Chris' picture is there's no solid line prohibiting someone in the right lane from moving into the left lane of the ramp right at the point where the taper occurs. This seems kind of dangerous as you could have someone in the right lane moving into the left lane of the ramp at the same time someone in the center lane is exiting into the same lane of the ramp.
__________________
Places I've driven:
North America: All US states except AK, ND, and SD; Canadian provinces of AB, BC, ON, and QC
Europe: AT, BE, CH, CZ, DE, DK, FR, HU (barely and by mistake); IT, LI, LU, NL, NO, SE, SK, and UK
Australia: ACT, NSW, VIC
Roadnerd over 40 years!
Natomasken no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #2340
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

R4 Gent

The southern link of R4 at Gent was inaugurated today. It will open to traffic Wednesday night. The new southern part of R4 is a major improvement for local traffic around Gent.

ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autoroute, autoselweg, belgië, belgium, flanders, snelweg, vlaanderen, wallon, wallonia

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium