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Old February 23rd, 2011, 05:10 PM   #921
Wimpie
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@ Teach

I am perfectly aware of what I've said, I like Brussels as a city, alot, but I don't see why I as a Flemish person has to refer to streets or places in the city in French while it is the only officially bilingual state in the country.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Those already stubbornly drawn in these language wars (useless nowadays when, I suppose, Belgians educated in Belgium have knowledge of both languages) already know how cities are known. Those unfamiliar with 19th century grievances might find themselves lost in the highways trying to figure out Liuk = Liège and Anvers = Antwerpen.

Again, it has nothing to do with 19th century grievances. If you would have read my comment properly, you would have seen that its all about what happened after world war 2. Only than after a great deal of struggling Dutch became a propper official language of Belgium. It is after all the majority language of the country but was treated as a minority one. Up to today a minority seems to be in the assumption that they can dictate the ways of a majority. And than I leave out what happened for example during WW I...

About the signs, the system is perfectly logical, when reffering to national places the name of that city is always displayed in the language of the state where the sign is located and thus the name most commonly amongst the people living there. When reffering to international places both the domestic name and the name of the place known in the language of the other country are displayed. When traveling into Belgium you should be aware, as a guest, that places can have differing names.

Back to roads

I made this album last spring, its the E314 which was built in 1986

Link
http://s400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/Wimpie25/E314/

A few key pictures












Last edited by Wimpie; February 23rd, 2011 at 06:52 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 06:13 PM   #922
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I don't see why I as a Flemish person has to refer to streets or places in the city in French while it is the only officially bilingual state in the country.
Um, your entire rant here has been based on the idea they have to be referred to in BOTH languages BECAUSE Brussels is bilingual. Sounds like you're trying to wiggle your ass out of being caught not following your own rule by making up this new 'exception' where the rule now apparently only applies to foreigners...
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 06:55 PM   #923
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I'm not making up my own rules, nor I'm trying to work myself out of it. All I do is asking people to respect the Belgian language laws, the same laws I've been following here all along because as I Flemish person I DO NOT have to reffer to place in Brussels in French...
I suggest you dig yourself into the legal part before commenting on people.
And please, stick to roads...

My video of the E314, I don't think I've posted it yet.


Last edited by Wimpie; February 23rd, 2011 at 07:03 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 07:43 PM   #924
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All I do is asking people to respect the Belgian language laws
First of all, Belgian language laws don't count in this forum. Second, if you demand that people use both the Dutch and French names of a bilingual city when in international company (like, in this, the international part of this forum), then you should do the same.

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as I Flemish person I DO NOT have to reffer to place in Brussels in French...
...then other people don't have to refer to them in Dutch either. And you're the last person who should be lecturing them that they should.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 07:50 PM   #925
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Wimpie.... get real. Nobody outside Belgium gives a ...... (you fill in the blanks) about whether is it Brussels or Bruxelles or Brusel, or even Bruxel like we call it in Romanian. Really, do you care if the big Romanian city of Cluj Napoca is referred as Kolojvar (Hungarian) or Clausenburg (German)?

Come on, this are realy 19th century issues. We're in the 21st. Sooner or later we'll all be "the great European nation". All the languages in Europe will eventually merge into a single one. And so will the names. The local national names of the cities will then be reffered as "the old local name".

It's really stupid to get offended by the way people call a city, especially since they use a wide spread version of the name. And, by the way, like it or not, Bruxel (you don't mind me calling it in Romanian) is less and less the Belgian Capital and more and more the European Capital. Therefore, don't be surprised you'll see it called in ways you don't expect.

Bucuresti (Bucharest, Bucarest etc.) is called in so many ways, yet still I have my food on the table every evening.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 08:10 PM   #926
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Just to say that all of this is extremely OT, other than childish and boring.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 08:17 PM   #927
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I'm afraid to ask where Wimpie's last set of pictures are from (because the "Waver-Namen-Heverlee" sign in the second one suggests to me that it's a Flemish city sufficiently well known in history that its French name is well established enough in English that it can be considered the English name as well. Sort of like Bruges.)
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 09:47 PM   #928
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Namen & Waver are both cities in Wallonia and are sometimes known under their newer French names (Wavre & Namur).

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Originally Posted by Baiazid View Post
Come on, this are realy 19th century issues. We're in the 21st. Sooner or later we'll all be "the great European nation". All the languages in Europe will eventually merge into a single one. And so will the names. The local national names of the cities will then be reffered as "the old local name".
For the last time, these are not 19th century issues. People died in the 80's while defending Dutch in the Voeren region...
And like I said, a country with 2 official languages (plus german) only had its constitution translated in the majority language in 1967? And what about the numerous Flemish soldiers that died during the wars under control of Wallonian superiors? That is very 19th century...
I'm glad that Flanders became a semi-autonomous state within Belgium but I wouldn't mind the Walloons to stop fiddeling with our ways...
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 11:35 PM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpie View Post
Namen & Waver are both cities in Wallonia and are sometimes known under their newer French names (Wavre & Namur).



For the last time, these are not 19th century issues. People died in the 80's while defending Dutch in the Voeren region...
And like I said, a country with 2 official languages (plus german) only had its constitution translated in the majority language in 1967? And what about the numerous Flemish soldiers that died during the wars under control of Wallonian superiors? That is very 19th century...
I'm glad that Flanders became a semi-autonomous state within Belgium but I wouldn't mind the Walloons to stop fiddeling with our ways...
I am aware that Namen and Waver are Dutch for Namur and Wavre. (Although how are the French names "newer"?) The Namen/Waver/Heverlee signs (and the location of the E314) suggested to me that the picture might have been taken in...in a city that I don't dare identify to you by the name that it's mostly known by in English, because I'll be accused of being racist or something.

I don't see any Walloon on this forum fiddling with your ways (whatever that means), just foreigners genuinely interested in your country who suddenly find themselves being attacked for breaking rules that they have no reason to know exist. Seriously, if you were actually trying to make us take the Francophone side in the issue, you should continue behaving exactly the way you are.

Nu hoe zegt men in het Nederlands, "get a ******* grip"?
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; February 24th, 2011 at 12:32 AM.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 12:32 AM   #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I don't see any Walloon on this forum fiddling with your ways (whatever that means), just foreigners genuinely interested in your country who suddenly find themselves being attacked for breaking rules that they have no reason to know exist. Seriously, if you were actually trying to make us take the Francophone side in the issue, you should continue behaving exactly the way you are.

Nu hoe zegt men in het Nederlands, "get a ******* grip"?
You`re so right. I am so fed up with all this language fighting. Be proud of your flemish nationality but please let others express their opinions, too. If a foreigner names a city not in the `officially`correct way, so what. This is above all, a highway-forum, not a battlefield against the french speaking world.... I also did not notice any Wallon in here arguing about the language issue you opened up, Wimpie....
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Old February 24th, 2011, 01:57 AM   #931
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Sigh. I would've hoped this discussion would've died down on the last page already.

First of all: sure, it was weird that Bruxelles was used in that English text, whereas it would've been more logical to use the English term Brussels. It just makes more sense to put it in the same version as the language you're writing. It makes less sense to write either Bruxelles or Brussel. Important note: do I care? Not the tiniest bit.

As for directions on signs to cities in another linguistic region: there's more logic to write those in the language of that city itself, but the current situation isn't any different than in most other countries anyway. I wouldn't be against changing that around, but I don't really let any sleep over that.

As for my personal experience with other languages: there's only one place where I refuse to speak or listen to another foreign language unless it's something that I intended to happen: in my own house. Apart from that: I always help people wherever I am, but if I see that people are clearly not even attempting the tiniest bit to use the language of the region, I refuse to help them in their language and reply in the region's language. Note that I do this in both Flanders and Wallonia, so a Fleming I don't know who tries to ask me stuff in Dutch in Wallonia will get a reply in French from me if he didn't first had a (bad) attempt at French.

People who don't live in a situation like this one may think this is completely bonkers, and I don't blame you. It's just that if you are exposed to these situations pretty much every day, that you start making certain rules and putting up boundaries to it. It's all very exhausting and it's just easier for me to deal with it that way.

I'm a proud Fleming, but equally proud Belgian, European and international person.

Sadly enough, there aren't that many people from Wallonia on this forum so we could get a point of view from them. Or I guess they're just afraid to be bashed by some of my (astray) fellow Flemings for some stupid detail or thing they can't understand. That's what's called a collision of cultures, I guess.

EDIT: oh, and can we now start talking about highways again?

Greetings,
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Old February 24th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #932
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I could't care less if someone says 'Anvers' in stead of 'Antwerp' or 'Antwerpen'. Jeez, this is getting out of hand Back to the ROADS.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #933
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One last comment though: I just want to make it clear for foreigners that not all Flemish people think like Wimpie. I value our language laws as well, but I see that in practice it doesn't always work out, so I don't mind errors made against them, especially by foreigners.

But in Wimpie's defence, I must agree with him that it's not only "19th century" stuff, but that all of the events concerning languages, laws and the form of our country are very fresh in our minds, especially now that the reason for the very existence of it are being questioned.

I hope Wimpie will not take to much offence in what I wrote here, but if he does, please send me a pm. Discussions like this should not be held in this topic.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 02:25 PM   #934
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I'm not offended at all, it's just that I can really get into the the whole subject of our language laws, up to the point that it almost makes me hyperventilate. I just want to make clear to foreigners or people who know little about it, that it is more than a minor historical issue and that alot of people really take it serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I am aware that Namen and Waver are Dutch for Namur and Wavre. (Although how are the French names "newer"?) The Namen/Waver/Heverlee signs (and the location of the E314) suggested to me that the picture might have been taken in...in a city that I don't dare identify to you by the name that it's mostly known by in English, because I'll be accused of being racist or something.
That city is called Leuven.
The French versions of these city names are newer because the Dutch language border kept moving north in the past 400 years until it was legally defined in the sixties to put a hold to the Frenchification. That is why most of the Wallonian cities or towns have an (historical) Dutch name which is much older than the frenchified modern day version of it.
But it is not only Wallonia but also the largest part of the north half of France used to be part of the Dutch language region (the 17 provinces of the united Netherlands). That is also why the northern half of France looks alot like Belgium when it comes to the more historical city centers. For example Saint Quintèns is known as Sint Kwintens in Belgium. But also Lille is always signed as Rijssel (with the French version between brackets). The process of frenchification was sped up under the influence of Napoleon and became dramatic after the independence of Belgium of the Netherlands.
With the language border being situated in Belgium, our country is actually a collision between 2 cultures.

For example this intersection is both in France & Belgium, you can check on the map that the border is actually in the model of the road behind you for a few km's

http://maps.google.be/?ie=UTF8&ll=50...47.85,,0,11.61

Last edited by Wimpie; February 24th, 2011 at 02:46 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 04:18 PM   #935
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Uhm, I can tell you that's completely wrong. The linguistic border in Belgium has barely moved over the past centuries, except maybe for a few small villages along the border (and Brussels). Everything south of it has always been French speaking and everything north of it has always been Dutch speaking. So no, the Dutch names names For Wavre or Namur are not older than the French names and these cities have never been Dutch speaking.
In Northern France, only the present-day arrondissement of Dunkirk was historically Dutch speaking. Lille (Rijsel in Dutch and not Rijssel) or Saint-Quentin have never been Dutch speaking.
Looks to me like you've got your information from some untrustworthy source.

Anyway, back to the highways now!
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #936
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #937
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Belgian politics over the last 5 years in one picture?
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:41 PM   #938
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Quote:
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Belgian politics over the last 5 years in one picture?
No, just 4. Large part of this year is better represented by this one:
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:46 PM   #939
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So, how about Belgian motorways?
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Old February 24th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #940
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So, how about Belgian motorways?
I think they're still breeding on a plan to dismantle all corroded light-poles before they all will fall down on the motorways...
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