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Old June 7th, 2011, 02:49 PM   #1181
g.spinoza
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Is it realistic to force a city into constant traffic jams and road expansion just because you WANT to drive there?



or, as one of the greatest Italian singer sang:

"Liberty is not being upon a tree,
it's not a gesture or an invention
it's not a free space
liberty is involvement."

Everyone of us live in a community, and a being in a community is doing what is better for the community.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #1182
Filou
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People have to decide for themselves
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I want to take the plane to downtown. Why the hell they don't build an airport in the city main square?
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Typical answer from some one in which everything is either black or white. You have to stay realistic in your arguments.
I suppose that his point was that when the government builds motorways, tunnels, railroad, metrolines they always decide for the people. You can have the argument that you want to decide for yourself how you want to go to the citycenter, but the decision to build infrastructure is not an individual one.

In this case the Brussels government decided that there are too much cars in the city, witch brings the quality of life and the health of the Brussels population in danger.

After downgrading this motorway, you will still have the possibility to drive to Brussels, the only difference is that it will be on a normal avenue and not a motorway.

You state that the people must decide for themselves, but in this case the people of Brussels decided that your car among all these others are bad for their physical and mental health.

What is more important: your freedom to drive your car or the freedom of the Brusselers to breathe?

Examples of similar situations in other countries show that the trafic jams never increase after demolitions of citymotorways. Quite the contrary...

Seoul:

Before:



During demolition:



After:



Much better for the quality of life, huh?
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:03 PM   #1183
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Yes, reduction of capacity by 30% and subsequent much more severe congestion is going to improve air quality.

Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor.

You may reduce traffic somewhat, but 80% of idling and queuing traffic is still much worse for air quality than 100% of free-flow traffic. In fact, do you know what the roads with the worst air quality are? Urban arteries with 40 000 vehicles per day, not motorways with 120 000 vehicles per day.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:06 PM   #1184
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Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor.

You may reduce traffic somewhat, but 80% of idling and queuing traffic is still much worse for air quality than 100% of free-flow traffic. In fact, do you know what the roads with the worst air quality are? Urban arteries with 40 000 vehicles per day, not motorways with 120 000 vehicles per day.
Mental doctor is needed by those who are willing to stay in queue for hours every day when road capacity is insufficient, instead of taking public transport.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #1185
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Mental doctor is needed by those who are willing to stay in queue for hours every day when road capacity is insufficient, instead of taking public transport.
90% of the car journeys - including congestion - are still faster than public transport.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #1186
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Is it realistic to force a city into constant traffic jams and road expansion just because you WANT to drive there?
Is it realistic to force a city and it's outer ring into constant jams and road expansions just because some bunch of cityhippies DON'T WANT you to drive there ?
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:15 PM   #1187
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90% of the car journeys - including congestion - are still faster than public transport.
I don't know where you took this statistic but it feels wrong. When there is serious congestion (and in Munich this happens quite often) driving is simply not an option. 40 minutes to get to Garching from Munich (last sunday's jam), rather than 15 minutes in normal conditions or 17 minutes by U-Bahn
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:16 PM   #1188
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Is it realistic to force a city and it's outer ring into constant jams and road expansions just because some bunch of cityhippies DON'T WANT you to drive there ?
Yes, it is. It's called government. Otherwise it's just anarchy.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:17 PM   #1189
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Please compare door-to-door transport under normal circumstances. Not station to station. Besides that, many people like to compare trips to the city center, while the majority of the trips is outside the city center (Europe is not the U.S. or Tokyo). The 10% trips where public transport is usually faster are city center to city center trips, or from favorable locations to the city center.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #1190
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Please compare door-to-door transport under normal circumstances. Not station to station. Besides that, many people like to compare trips to the city center, while the majority of the trips is outside the city center (Europe is not the U.S. or Tokyo). The 10% trips where public transport is usually faster are city center to city center trips, or from favorable locations to the city center.
You may be right. But I still think that better air is worth waking up 15 minutes earlier.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:26 PM   #1191
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The quality of air is most certainly not determined by the number of vehicles on a certain road. There are much more issues to factor in, the urban layout (street canyons), number of traffic lights, background concentrations, congestion, truck traffic share, etc. That's why I said before that urban arteries with traffic lights tend to have a worse air quality than motorways with far more traffic.

Hence, the reduction of traffic on a motorway will not necessarily improve air quality, on the contrary, even at lower traffic volumes, air quality can still degrade.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:30 PM   #1192
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In this case the Brussels government decided that there are too much cars in the city, witch brings the quality of life and the health of the Brussels population in danger.

After downgrading this motorway, you will still have the possibility to drive to Brussels, the only difference is that it will be on a normal avenue and not a motorway.

It's a tunnel for for Christ's sake. The motorways is still well outside the dense city limits. If Brussels is going to downgrade this strecht of freeways. Traffic jams will be several kilometers longer all over Flanders. They will also take longer to desolve and thus as Chris states, you will be moving the "air problem" to any given region in Flanders.
They should never have given Brussels the right to control those stretches of motorways.
Brussels was blessed with an efficiënt roadway infrastructure, downgrading that would be as much of a disgrace like bombing the Gisa Piramids...
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #1193
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Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor.
I think your insults are disgusting. And you call yourself a mod? I don't want to have a debate with people who start to call people names when they have different opinion.

Bye
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:36 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The quality of air is most certainly not determined by the number of vehicles on a certain road. There are much more issues to factor in, the urban layout (street canyons), number of traffic lights, background concentrations, congestion, truck traffic share, etc. That's why I said before that urban arteries with traffic lights tend to have a worse air quality than motorways with far more traffic.

Hence, the reduction of traffic on a motorway will not necessarily improve air quality, on the contrary, even at lower traffic volumes, air quality can still degrade.
At some point, you will have to leave the motorway anyway and get into the city streets, with traffic lights and canyons and such. You cannot seriously expect me to believe that reducing traffic increases pollution. It's like saying that Jesus Christ froze to death, as we say in Italy.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #1195
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At some point, you will have to leave the motorway anyway and get into the city streets, with traffic lights and canyons and such. You cannot seriously expect me to believe that reducing traffic increases pollution.
Usually traffic spreads out on various streets at the end of a motorway (as is the case on E40, which continues into tunnels and city streets). E40 only makes it halfway to the city center by the way, it terminates in residential areas.

Reducing traffic alone may not degrade air quality. However, this reduction is usually only achieved by seriously obstructing traffic flow, which subsequently leads to more congestion and emissions, thus degrading air quality.

They monitor air quality in my city, and did you know which road had the worst air quality? Not the motorway with 120 000 vehicles per day. Not the six-lane beltway with 60 000 vehicles per day. But a 50 km/h two-lane city street where all buses come through with near-constant stop-and-go traffic. It carries only 10 000 vehicles per day, yet has the worst air quality of all.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #1196
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I think your insults are disgusting. And you call yourself a mod? I don't want to have a debate with people who start to call people names when they have different opinion.

Bye
He's not insulting anyone, he's merely stating facts. In order to improve the air quality in an economically responsible way, you have to make sure traffic keeps moving. Narrowing down roads or demolishing viaducts and overpasses, you're slowing down the traffic flow which results in more pollution.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:51 PM   #1197
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They monitor air quality in my city, and did you know which road had the worst air quality? Not the motorway with 120 000 vehicles per day. Not the six-lane beltway with 60 000 vehicles per day. But a 50 km/h two-lane city street where all buses come through with near-constant stop-and-go traffic. It carries only 10 000 vehicles per day, yet has the worst air quality of all.
I can see that, but I think that reducing the possibility to access to that street would reduce the number of buses (or cars) accessing to that street. It would still be the most polluted road in your city, but at least it would have, say, 7000 vehicles per day, and not 10000.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #1198
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It doesn't matter, g.spinoza, Chriszwolle thinks that people who disagree with him have mental problems. It useless to argue with somebody like that.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #1199
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He's not insulting anyone, he's merely stating facts.
Yeah, who's facts? Never mind, discussion is useless here.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:59 PM   #1200
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It doesn't matter, g.spinoza, Chriszwolle thinks that people who disagree with him have mental problems. It useless to argue with somebody like that.
I disagree, I think Chriszwolle is one of the most balanced and interesting people to talk to here. I always listen to what he says, even if sometimes I don't agree, but I have to admit that remark about people who needs mental doctor was way out of line, especially from him.
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