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Old June 7th, 2011, 06:35 PM   #1221
Filou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you make car traffic even more hellish by reducing capacity and expensive by reducing street parking (essentially leaving underground parking as the only option), people might just move elsewhere where traffic is better. If those people are skilled and earn good wages, employers might well follow them later.
Again, this is what's happening right now! You guys don't understand. Brussels is today inaccessible, middleclass is moving outside the city, industry has left almost completely, offices move far away to Flanders or Brabant Wallon.
For you guys the sollution is simplistic: build more roads in Brussels and everything will be fine. It's just the overkill of tunnels and urban motorways that has caused all these problems. By resizing the infrastructure to a more human level, forcing the people to find other sollutions, the city will be a more pleasant place. It's a proven concept! Keep the cars outside the city and middleclass will come back, because their children can play in the streets, offices will come back, because their (or most) employees live IN the city, the others will commute by train or metro...

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If you reduce mobility, you will only increase the cost of housing near employment centers.
That's quite absurd!

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Then, again, you end only with the rich (which can pay millions) or the poor (who accept living in cramped flats with not much space, let alone private gardens/yards) will think as attractive to live.
Again: that's how it is TODAY! thanks to your carfriendly city!

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for business and then business + employees will relocate elsewhere.
Again and again: that's what's happening today. To stop relocation of business and middleclass the city has to become human-friendly.

It's funny how you describe a "possible" future while this is what Brussels is today! How can you not know this?

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of Wallonia and Flandres attracting business from Brussels to their own regions, just after the border, creating reverse commute
There is no reverse commuting. The workers (middleclass) have allready left the city. What's left in Brussels is unemployment of more than 20 % . You seem not to understand that the situation is very bad in Brussels. The present situation must be turned around.

The car and motorway-freeks do not see that our cities have become unlivable because of the endless flow of trafic jams going in and out of the city.
Building more roads will make it worse. Correcting the errors of the past will surely improve the situation.

I'm not against cars, I'm against the terror of the cars. Let's make it better for everybody.
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Last edited by Filou; June 7th, 2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #1222
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If it wasn't neceassary to bring all those commuters into Brussels, the national minister of transport, infrastructure and mobility would have never let those tunnels built.
If Brussels is going to lock itself out for the rest of Flanders, we'll be more than happy to transport everything elsewhere.
Brussels should do something about its social problems first before blaming the people that pay your debts.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 06:50 PM   #1223
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If it wasn't neceassary to bring all those commuters into Brussels, the national minister of transport, infrastructure and mobility would have never let those tunnels built.
For who was it necessary: for the commuters or the Brusselers? It's clear that the benefit of these tunnels do not go to Brussels. But the cost of maintenance or now for Brussels.
In those days the national politicians did not consider Brussels a city to live in. In was just a place for offices and trains- and cartunnels to bring the commuters to work.

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If Brussels is going to lock itself out for the rest of Flanders, we'll be more than happy to transport everything elsewhere.
Don't forget to take your tunnels with you when you leave.

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Brussels should do something about its social problems first before blaming the people that pay your debts.
Is this a discussion about tunnels and urban motorways or is it just a hate tirade against Brussels?

Sad

I see that the discussion is useless.

Some people believe that motorways and cartunnels bring prosperity. I don't see that.
Other people believe that a sollution has to be found for the traffic congestion and the decay of the city. That's my opinion.

I don't think we will agree.
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Last edited by Filou; June 7th, 2011 at 06:58 PM.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 08:09 PM   #1224
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Originally Posted by Wimpie View Post
....
What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....
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Old June 7th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #1225
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Its easy to call people wackoes just because they have different oppinion on some matter. E.g. I am very pro nuclear energy, but dont know if it helps my arguments to call some anti nuclear activists names (neverthless I do sometimes :O).

The fact that people left the cities for the suburbs and countryside has completaly different reasons. People just prefer private space for their own hyves. The richer the family, the more probable it will have as its base a house somewhere in the countryside, preferably in some preserved nature. Lower density is the key. This has nothing to do with traffic. People in fact move out of the city in spite of the longer commuting times, just because they love the suburb, or peace of a village.

The business or industrial centrum moving to the places where the people live would only destroy that location and the people would move away again.

Thus what is the presented solution? Creation of massive car traffic flows from the suburbs into the city centers. What happens? The city center becomes even less suitable for normal living, causing yet more exodus. The areas around these arteries will die out completaly.

Just a question. Why is the area around Central Park the most expensive residential area in New York? Is it because there is good connection from here to the suburbs? Hell no. It is because it is around the nicest place to live around there and yet staying in the city, thus not having to commute.

I dont share the oppinion that the city centers would be saved by creating huge superhigways going through them. On the contrary, the city centers are destroyed by it. But to make it clear. I am not talking about agglomeration areas. These certainly needs superhigways to hub the whole place together. But no one expects there that people would actually live there next to the motorways and be happy.

And to close it. I am fully aware of what are the possibilities of personal car and I use it gladly. But I think that the world where everyone basically has one car and uses it in the same manner as people used their own feet, just requires much better sollutions then creating superhigways or expanding freeways into the city centers. It requires personalized public transport system and new non fossile fuel based economy...!! I am not going to reapeat myself, since I wrote about that already several times. But I see the city tunnels as some starting points. The problem for the city and people in it now however stays after the cars leave the tunnel.

Last edited by Surel; June 7th, 2011 at 08:53 PM.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....
Rating of the rest area. But I have no idea how the rest area's are rated


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G...0/IMG_1589.JPG


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z...0/IMG_1650.JPG

Edit:

The newer signs don't use them anymore i think:
Picture by wimpie:

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/p...11109_1558.jpg
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Last edited by joshsam; June 7th, 2011 at 09:12 PM.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 09:26 PM   #1227
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National road N31 Bruges(no highway)
Changes to highway A17/E403 at the junction with the A10/E40

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Last edited by joshsam; June 7th, 2011 at 09:46 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #1228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....

They're usually quite descent because most of them are owned by international chains of hotels. They're completly built for motorways, soundproof. I said this before, in Europe you can live your life without ever leaving the motorway
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Old June 11th, 2011, 06:14 PM   #1229
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High speed police chase around Antwerp

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Old June 11th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What most transit wackos ignore, or better saying, the question they refuse to ask, is: what impacts reduced access have on the economy of a city/neighborhood? All Western schemes to reduce traffic via capacity constriction have failed to move everyone to transit. In the long term, you end with unintended consequences.

Amsterdam pursued such policies in the 1970s. Its central area may look lovely, but many serious business and companies' HQs left for outer suburbs, curiously close to - guess - the A10 and A9 motorways.
Actually, the city center is still very important for employment. The municipality's website has good data on it.
Access for cars has been reduced but the rate of cycling has increased a lot. Then there's also public transit which works just fine in a diverse, dense city like Amsterdam. So you can wonder if there's truly so much reduction in accessibility.
Also central Amsterdam is attractive because of it's livability not accessibility. People move there because it's a good place to live, in part because car traffic is light. The city attracts many people with a degree in higher education, and it are these people why there are so many HQs in Amsterdam.
Which by the way tend to cluster around the railway stations that also have nearby highway access. These locations are highly accessible by all modes of transportation.

So if you look at the impact of these policies on the economy it has been very positive.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 08:50 PM   #1231
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The businesses in Central Amsterdam are mostly of a relatively small size. That makes good employment rates (don't forget the many shops in the area), but I would still say that the Amsterdam city centre is incapable of housing large enterprises as you also need them in a capital city. And to the extent that the city centre is capable of doing so, it must be only in a fringe area like the IJ embankments. Where the town council has been realistic enough to provide for good car access.

But well, the conclusion is justified that the more classic part of Central Amsterdam is highly liveable. But well, so are areas that through NIMBYism prevent much needed infrastructure from being constructed. It has a sense of egoism over it, that approach that says "just go somewhere else".
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Old June 13th, 2011, 12:54 PM   #1232
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Back to Belgium now
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Old June 13th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #1233
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Found this on another forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuqbftqboKs

Edit: Sorry, I didn't know it was posted before. I saw the video was uploaded on June 11th so I only checked the posts from the last 2 days.

Last edited by Cicerón; June 13th, 2011 at 04:14 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 03:15 PM   #1234
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I believe this already appeared in this thread
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Old June 13th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #1235
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Well, actually, the worst road in Belgium is this one: http://maps.google.be/maps?f=d&sourc...03484&t=h&z=19

You go up and down 16 times, and the 'hills' are extra high. I have to slow down to 15km/h... There have been many complaints by neighbours and questions about the safety (firefighters, ambulance...)
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Old June 14th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #1236
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all of the speedbumps in this region were replaced with lower versions in asphalt after the regulations concering speedbumps were changed.
You don't have to slow down to pass the new versions, it's mainly a visual thing now.
If you think those speedbumps in the link are too dangerous, you can always post a remark on meldpuntwegen.be
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:09 AM   #1237
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Hi guys. This thread is not my usual place, but 2 days ago I came back from my regular car ride to London and - as usual - the ONLY place that had me stuck BOTH WAYS was Antwerpen.

Driving to London it was a usual traffic I suppose, as my car stayed on R1 and after 2 hours we left the damn^H^H^H^Hwonderful town of Antwerp behind us.

However, when driving back to Krakow, the damned thing forced me off the motorway in Gent and then gave me the WEIRDEST route ever. First through some river port in Gent, then through the very down town of Antwerp. Here's the GPS log:



My question is: was there really something happening on BOTH rings at that date? Or did my car just go mental for no reason?

There were these warning signs displaying something over the motorway, but for me it looked like:

vegoenoenbogsonnbggvegVIADUCTntgeskent R1/R2

Anyway, you guys have the best TMC system in the whole freaking Europe, even though I wanted to literally SMASH the damned thing when it was changing my route EVERY 2 MINTUES. It would be nice if your signs/lcd messages/tmc messages were in English, too.

BTW - It's the first time I drove through Eindhoven after the new road layout was finished >> WOW!!
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #1238
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There'll be traffic works on the Viaduct of Vilvoorde (R0 around Brussels) soon (18 June till the end of August), but that shouldn't have been accounted for yet. Can't really think of any other viaducts that are even remotely nearby that could have an effect on your route...

Greetings,
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Old June 15th, 2011, 10:43 AM   #1239
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the damned thing forced me off the motorway in Gent
Nobody forces you anywhere
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Old June 15th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #1240
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Really! I have no GPS at all, and yet I manage to get out of town and go tooling around the Northeast, into multiple states, just fine.

Maybe it was confused, since it has A-numbers only and the signage has only E-numbers.
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