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Old September 7th, 2011, 04:09 PM   #1401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In the Netherlands, E19, E22 and E25 are good examples of weird routing. E19 is not the fastest route between Breda and Antwerpen (via Utrecht is shorter and faster). E22 across the Afsluitdijk makes as much sense as using A7 from Amsterdam to Groningen. E25 runs from Maastricht to Hoek van Holland - via Utrecht!
Regarding the Dutch part of the E19 and the E25, I can see your point. Those are indeed not the routes I would take if I were planning to go from Amsterdam to Breda or from Maastricht to Hoek van Holland, respectively. I don't understand why you include the E22 in your examples of 'weird routing' in the Netherlands, because as far as I can see the A7 from Amsterdam to Groningen is the E22. Or did you perhaps mean to say the A7/E22 makes as much sense as taking the A6 to Joure and then the A7 to Groningen?

Nevertheless, this still does not explain why Road_UK complains of E-routes in a thread about Belgium, where, as you say, the E-numbering makes more sense.
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But if this guy from Groningen intends to follow the E22 to Sweden, then I hope he drops us a line at Rügen. I'd be dying to know what he would do next...
Next I would take the ferry from Sassnitz to Trelleborg.

Last edited by Green Guy; September 7th, 2011 at 04:16 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 04:10 PM   #1402
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E19 is not the fastest route between Breda and Antwerpen (via Utrecht is shorter and faster).
between Amsterdam and Antwerp
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Old September 7th, 2011, 04:12 PM   #1403
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I don't understand why you include the E22 in your examples of 'weird routing' in the Netherlands, because as far as I can see the A7 from Amsterdam to Groningen is the E22.
But there is a faster way to drive towards Groningen (A1/A6/A7 via Lelystad). That's why the number isn't logical.
Yes, I do know that the number A7 isn't logical either
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Old September 7th, 2011, 04:24 PM   #1404
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Originally Posted by Green Guy View Post
Regarding the Dutch part of the E19 and the E25, I can see your point. Those are indeed not the routes I would take if I were planning to go from Amsterdam to Breda or from Maastricht to Hoek van Holland, respectively. I don't understand why you include the E22 in your examples of 'weird routing' in the Netherlands, because as far as I can see the A7 from Amsterdam to Groningen is the E22. Or did you perhaps mean to say the A7/E22 makes as much sense as taking the A6 to Joure and then the A7 to Groningen?

Nevertheless, this still does not explain why Road_UK complains of E-routes in a thread about Belgium, where, as you say, the E-numbering makes more sense.

Next I would take the ferry from Sassnitz to Trelleborg.
What I don't get is why Belgium doesn't post its domestic "A" numbers (which have a certain internal logic to them) as well. Like everyone else does. It would at least have the advantage of matching what's on maps.
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Old September 7th, 2011, 10:26 PM   #1405
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We don't because most of our routes have E-routes and the A-numbering never really became popular. Belgium has always been very pro-EU in history, and the E-numbering was therefore probably welcomed a lot more than in other countries. Also, since we're quite a small country, the E-routes are pretty much equally as easy to remember as an internal numbering system would be.

The E-network should've never been made in a grid-system. Grids are fine if you have a big area in which there are no motorways and you want to start adding those. In Europe however, there are a lot of irregularly-shaped coastal lines and there were already lots of motorways - rendering a grid-based system almost useless. There are motorways that don't match the grid and coastal lines where the grid system can't go around.

In Europe, it should've been a motorway system where the single-digit numbers are routes between the biggest cities (mainly capitals), double-digit numbers between other very big cities and triple-digit numbers for other often-used international connections (or something similar like that). The geography isn't as important as the destinations for a motorway network, in my opinion.

As for the responsibility going from federal to the states: it resulted in Flanders being able to use its money to improve the roads and Wallonia is now slowly starting to catch on as well. Efficiency has probably improved a bit since the whole language aspect most likely slowed things down, but there's more people needed to do the same job now, so it could very well also be more costly. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been checked anywhere.

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Old September 8th, 2011, 09:39 AM   #1406
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Quote:
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We don't because most of our routes have E-routes and the A-numbering never really became popular. Belgium has always been very pro-EU in history, and the E-numbering was therefore probably welcomed a lot more than in other countries.
E-numbering was quite popular throughout Europe in the 1970s, which was the age when other countries started signposting national motorway numbers. When those quickly took over as the route numbers of choice, I don't think that an anti-EU stance was to blame. In fact, the EU was much less influential in those days. The key driver in the choice made by road authorities elsewhere must have been the fact that a lot of motorways were being constructed at the time and those motorways needed good and consistent signposting, irrespective of whether they were part of European main throughfares. The acceptance by the general public followed from the way those new routes were signposted, taking clear precedence over E-numbers. Internal consistency and easy route numbers will have boosted acceptance among the general public.

Looking at Belgium, one has to take into account that road authorities did at some stage introduce A-numbers, but these came after the E-numbers and were, on E-routes, given a negligable role in the signposting. And of course the Belgian general public follows suit: they simply take what is on offer. An analysis of what might have been does not really bother anyone, and thanks to lapse of time those three-digit E-numbers have also become generally known among Belgians (such that they seem to forget that they are a pain for non-Belgians).

I do sometimes wonder, however, why the Belgian road authorities did not make the same choice as authorities elsewhere in Western-Europe, namely changing over to A-numbers. When it became apparent that some 50% of the Belgian motorways, with one- or two-digit E-numbers, had to change into three-digits as of 1985, why didn't road authorities change to easier A-numbers? Difficult to relate this to the EU and Belgium's stance towards the EU. In some way or another, I am tempted to think that Belgium's road authorities preferred relying on a system from the outside, which would save them, in 1985 and in the foreseeable future, from discussions between Flanders and Wallonia on the futile topic of route numbering. And if you look at the recent licence plate discussion, a choice made on that basis was a right thing to do...
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Old September 9th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #1407
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Our A-number system dates back to the early 70's. Roadnumbers were never signed until the A-number system was constructed. The frist A-numbers were signed in green as well, before the numbers freeways were signed reffered to in red. There have never been discussions over road-numbers between the 2 communities. Freeways are still built and they always get an A-number, even tough only the E-number will be signed. Thinking that we fight over roadnumbers is ridiculous.

Roadnumbers in Belgium, national system, revisioned in1986, was based on the A-number system.



A-number system



Reffering to freeways from lower grade roads before 1978


Current day situation


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Old September 9th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #1408
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Our A-number system dates back to the early 70's. Roadnumbers were never signed until the A-number system was constructed....
Do you mean that there was no road numbering at all - even for what are now N roads - until the 70s? Or just no numbering for freeways/motorways?
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Old September 9th, 2011, 04:40 PM   #1409
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Quote:
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Thinking that we fight over roadnumbers is ridiculous.
After your fight over licence plates, a fight over route numbers is not to be excluded anymore. Somebody in Belgium will take anything as an excuse to fight over.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #1410
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I think in Flanders instead of N-roads, we should have V-roads and in Wallonia they can have W-roads. V-roads will be signed with black letters on yellow background.

Since B is already in use for some roads, I suggest BC (Brussels-Capital) for Brussels. BC Roads can be signed in yellow letters on blue background, to symbolize the European nature of Brussels.

Roads that go from Wallonia to Flanders in Brussels can be signed using both numbers and systems. So We could have WBCV19 For example: Wallonie through BrusselsCapital to Vlaanderen.

Who's with me?
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Old September 9th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #1411
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Who's with me?
Spain will support it!
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Old September 9th, 2011, 05:17 PM   #1412
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LOL
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Old September 9th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #1413
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Quote:
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Roads that go from Wallonia to Flanders in Brussels can be signed using both numbers and systems. So We could have WBCV19 For example: Wallonie through BrusselsCapital to Vlaanderen.
BHV sounds like an appropriate prefix for that
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Old September 9th, 2011, 10:16 PM   #1414
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
After your fight over licence plates, a fight over route numbers is not to be excluded anymore. Somebody in Belgium will take anything as an excuse to fight over.
Nobody is questioning the road numbers. Although their is reason to since road maintaining is regionalised since 1989.

BTW: their was no fight over the license plates. Their were only a few politicians who wanted to keep the red-white colour scheme for familiar reasons. These were not only Francophone politicians but Flemish ones as well.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #1415
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Just a few politicians who wanted something. Pretty much the reason why Belgium is still without federal government, isn't it?

And yes, I am fully aware that there has not been a fight over road numbers yet. I'm just saying that one is not to be excluded anymore in Belgium as it currently stands. If there is anybody who has a better reason why Belgian road authorities did not use the 1985 E-renumbering as a ground to change to A-numbers as opposed to three-digit E-numbers, please let me know. Was it because complicated road numbers are considered cool in Belgium? Maybe E3789472389 was actually even cooler than E411?
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Old September 10th, 2011, 12:54 AM   #1416
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What's so complicated about 3-digit numbers? Don't get me started on the Dutch N-roadnetwork...
Another ridiculous statement. There cannot be a fight over road-numbers as they were fixed in full agreement between the 2 party's, well before the national roadnetwork was transferred to the region's.
The Belgian government always supported the E-numbering system, we believed in it and thus we followed the renumbering.
The constant questioning over the why's and what's in Belgian matters from (mainly the Dutch) is getting quite annoying.

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Do you mean that there was no road numbering at all - even for what are now N roads - until the 70s? Or just no numbering for freeways/motorways?
There has always been a national road-numbering systeem, it dates back to the French days. The A-numbering system however came into place when they decided how our network would finally look like.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 01:42 AM   #1417
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I was checking Wegenwiki website couple days ago. Apparently, Belgium hasn't opened any major freeway since the 1990s. In part, Belgium had already opened a lot of freeways by then, but there missing links and new alignments that need to be built. Mainly, there is a need to upgrade some 2x2 expressways to freeway (autoroute) standard. Namur Bertogne is an example of that. Turnhout-Geel another one. And then there is A12 Antwerpen-Bruxelles that need to have those traffic light ripped off.

Here is the graph:

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Old September 10th, 2011, 03:39 PM   #1418
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What's so complicated about 3-digit numbers? Don't get me started on the Dutch N-roadnetwork...
The Dutch N-network is based on the idea that routes with lower importance get lower higher numbers. That is the basis of route numbering networks pretty much throughout the World. But of course the rest of the World is wrong and Belgium is right. That's also why the rest of the World never seems to understand Belgian politicians.

The complication about 3-digit route numbers is that motorists can easily handle one or two during their journey, but not a full flurry of them. Throughout the World, you don't need to. The main chunk of every journey, over a country's main roads, are on routes with numbers below 100. Except in Belgium, where you pass from the E429 onto the E314. Or was it the E313? If you are in the area on a day-by-day basis, you will learn the difference. But Belgians seem to have forgotten that route numbering is a tool for people not familiar locally.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 05:52 PM   #1419
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Well, in Spain is even worse: Apart that our regular roads almost always have 3 or 4 digits, we have a nice set of lots of prefixes for our motorways, in order to keep their numbers on 2 digits, since the A followed by 3 or 4 digits are used in some regions as regular roads!
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Old September 10th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #1420
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The Dutch N-network is based on the idea that routes with lower importance get lower numbers. That is the basis of route numbering networks pretty much throughout the World. But of course the rest of the World is wrong and Belgium is right. That's also why the rest of the World never seems to understand Belgian politicians.

The complication about 3-digit route numbers is that motorists can easily handle one or two during their journey, but not a full flurry of them. Throughout the World, you don't need to. The main chunk of every journey, over a country's main roads, are on routes with numbers below 100. Except in Belgium, where you pass from the E429 onto the E314. Or was it the E313? If you are in the area on a day-by-day basis, you will learn the difference. But Belgians seem to have forgotten that route numbering is a tool for people not familiar locally.
You mean, I assume, that roads with higher importance get lower numbers?

And you can't go from the E429 to the E313 or the E314. Although the E313 and E314 do cross each other. ;-)
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