daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 15th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #1441
De Klauw
Registered User
 
De Klauw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,107
Likes (Received): 2455

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I hate driving in Belgium.
Why? Traffic jams are not really a unique Belgian phenomenon. (in Holland they are more frequent than in Belgium eg).

Plus those road works are necessary to improve the quality of our road network.

You can't complain about the bad condition of the roads (although its not as bad as some people think) and at the same time complain about road works which are intend to do something on the condition of the roads.
De Klauw no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 15th, 2011, 08:03 PM   #1442
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

Traffic congestion is booming in Belgium (similar to what we had in the early 2000's) but is declining significantly in the Netherlands. 2011 will likely have 30% less congestion than 2010, and 2010 already had some 10% less than 2009. That means traffic congestion is almost halved in a few years time while traffic volumes increased.

Belgium needs a large upgrade of its motorway network. It's too vulnerable for accidents, each time there is a truck accident within 30 kilometers of Antwerpen, the entire region is gridlocked. That's unacceptable for a city whose economy relies so much on transportation.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 10:48 PM   #1443
SkyView
Registered User
 
SkyView's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 605
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
E34 is a disgrace. And this morning at 7am I drove on the E314 coming out of Germany/Holland on my way to Gent. Wanted to go via Brussels, but matrix signs warned about an accident with queues and gave the travel advice to go via Antwerp instead. So I jumped on the E313 and ended up in traffic jams at Herentals and on the E17 at St Niklaas due to roadworks. I hate driving in Belgium. All you want after a day and night spinning through Italy, Austria, Germany and 30 km of Holland.
Maybe this can help you ;-)

http://maps.google.be/maps?saddr=May...&via=1&t=m&z=7
SkyView no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #1444
Moravian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 747
Likes (Received): 930

[QUOTE=SkyView;83827205]Maybe this can help you ;-)

Sure, but. I would suppose, it is the issue of toll in France too....
Moravian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #1445
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Correct. I won't use toll roads in France if I don't have to. By the way. I live in Mayrhofen, Tirol - not Mayerhofen, Salzburg...
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 11:18 PM   #1446
De Klauw
Registered User
 
De Klauw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,107
Likes (Received): 2455

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Traffic congestion is booming in Belgium (similar to what we had in the early 2000's) but is declining significantly in the Netherlands. 2011 will likely have 30% less congestion than 2010, and 2010 already had some 10% less than 2009. That means traffic congestion is almost halved in a few years time while traffic volumes increased.
You say there is less traffic congestion but the reality is that it's just because the roads are wider. The lost time is still practically the same: congestions are less long but you lose the same amount of time. Is that better?

It's like a genius once said 'you can prove anything with statistics'.

Though I agree with your point that the road netwerk in Antwerpen is too vulnerable for accidents. But blame the NIMBY's in Antwerpen for that: they voted against the Oosterweelverbinding which would resolved the problem.
De Klauw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 11:22 PM   #1447
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
You say there is less traffic congestion but the reality is that it's just because the roads are wider. The lost time is still practically the same: congestions are less long but you lose the same amount of time. Is that better?

It's like a genius once said 'you can prove anything with statistics'.
Utter nonsense. Many commuters will strongly disagree with you. Wider roads often means there is no congestion at all. There were many spots where you previously lost 20 or 30 minutes that is now free-flowing.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 11:41 PM   #1448
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
Why? Traffic jams are not really a unique Belgian phenomenon. (in Holland they are more frequent than in Belgium eg).

Plus those road works are necessary to improve the quality of our road network.

You can't complain about the bad condition of the roads (although its not as bad as some people think) and at the same time complain about road works which are intend to do something on the condition of the roads.
Why? Because the roads are generally bad. No matter how much they try to improve them, they are still bad. One Belgian guy ones blamed Dutch freight transitting through Belgium, which is bollucks because Dutch roads are good, another one explained something to me about lack of viber in concrete, due to the enviroment. Either way, even the newly renovated Antwerp Ring is showing signs of detoriation already, and that viaduct between E34 and E19 is begining to sound like that viaduct on the E17 at Gent. I've noticed this the other day. I'm in the UK at the moment, and roads here are not much better.
Your drivers are in a world of their own. Lane disclipline was ok when the authorities encouraged it, but now they choose any lane they want, and the authorities are now busy encouraging people to take the bus. They advertise on motorways to do so. You never put headlight on when you're supposed to, and you put fog lights on when you're not supposed to. Your signage are among the worst in Europe, and you're experimenting with new things, while you should be spending your money on improving your roads. These truck overtaking ban signs you introduced a few years ago for example. But they're not overtaking ban signs, they're blue signs, telling trucks to overtake.... And when they can't, there is a red line through it. Why are they trying to be so different? Cruise control signs - another pointless form of regulation. Believe me, none of your neigbours enjoy driving through Belgium. The Germans get stuck at Brussels, because they don't understand your signs on the Ring. Liege? Luik? Where the **** are we going... There is a reason why the Dutch and French make fun of your country, but the Germans and Brits are joining in as well now. It's the truth.
Roadworks. When you do make an effort to do your roads up, it's au pair with congestion. Germans have loads and loads of roadworks, but the traffic just drives through them. Not in Belgium. A fey years ago, you decided to do the E411 up between Namur and Luxembourg. Right in the summer months there was a lane closure for 25 km. That road is now one of the best roads in Belgium. But you didn't fix it. The Germans did. All I saw was German trucks, cars and pick-ups working on improving your roads. So you are incapable? The only Belgian thing I saw was the police pointing their radar guns at stationnary traffic.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 11:47 PM   #1449
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3714

What the hell is a "cruise control sign"?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 11:51 PM   #1450
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

When you approach sections where it's likely to be busy, the Belgians have put up a sign, with cruise control written on it with a red line crossed through. I've been told it's actually legislation to switch your cruise-controll off.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 12:56 PM   #1451
Thermo
Registered User
 
Thermo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Antwerp
Posts: 4,752
Likes (Received): 4192

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Why? Because the roads are generally bad. No matter how much they try to improve them, they are still bad. One Belgian guy ones blamed Dutch freight transitting through Belgium, which is bollucks because Dutch roads are good, another one explained something to me about lack of viber in concrete, due to the enviroment. Either way, even the newly renovated Antwerp Ring is showing signs of detoriation already, and that viaduct between E34 and E19 is begining to sound like that viaduct on the E17 at Gent. I've noticed this the other day. I'm in the UK at the moment, and roads here are not much better.
Your drivers are in a world of their own. Lane disclipline was ok when the authorities encouraged it, but now they choose any lane they want, and the authorities are now busy encouraging people to take the bus. They advertise on motorways to do so. You never put headlight on when you're supposed to, and you put fog lights on when you're not supposed to. Your signage are among the worst in Europe, and you're experimenting with new things, while you should be spending your money on improving your roads. These truck overtaking ban signs you introduced a few years ago for example. But they're not overtaking ban signs, they're blue signs, telling trucks to overtake.... And when they can't, there is a red line through it. Why are they trying to be so different? Cruise control signs - another pointless form of regulation. Believe me, none of your neigbours enjoy driving through Belgium. The Germans get stuck at Brussels, because they don't understand your signs on the Ring. Liege? Luik? Where the **** are we going... There is a reason why the Dutch and French make fun of your country, but the Germans and Brits are joining in as well now. It's the truth.
Roadworks. When you do make an effort to do your roads up, it's au pair with congestion. Germans have loads and loads of roadworks, but the traffic just drives through them. Not in Belgium. A fey years ago, you decided to do the E411 up between Namur and Luxembourg. Right in the summer months there was a lane closure for 25 km. That road is now one of the best roads in Belgium. But you didn't fix it. The Germans did. All I saw was German trucks, cars and pick-ups working on improving your roads. So you are incapable? The only Belgian thing I saw was the police pointing their radar guns at stationnary traffic.
Your hate for Belgium is getting a bit out of control I think...
Thermo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 01:11 PM   #1452
De Klauw
Registered User
 
De Klauw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,107
Likes (Received): 2455

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Why? Because the roads are generally bad.

They are only a few roads which are indeed bad. The overall quality improved a lot the last years and is really not that bad compared to other country's. I admit it's still not as good as neighbouring countries like the Netherlands but it's a clear fact they have the best maintained roads in the world so it's not really a good comperation.



No matter how much they try to improve them, they are still bad. One Belgian guy ones blamed Dutch freight transitting through Belgium, which is bollucks because Dutch roads are good, another one explained something to me about lack of viber in concrete, due to the enviroment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Either way, even the newly renovated Antwerp Ring is showing signs of detoriation already
The concrete surface is calculated to be OK for at least 40 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post

and that viaduct between E34 and E19 is begining to sound like that viaduct on the E17 at Gent.
Logic. The viaduct of Merksem is an old one. By the way, it will disappear in the near future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Your signage are among the worst in Europe
Have you ever been to Italy? Or your home country Austria known for the tiny letters? Belgian signage is perfect to find your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
The Germans get stuck at Brussels, because they don't understand your signs on the Ring. Liege? Luik? Where the **** are we going...
Like Belgium is the only country doing that. In France and Germany they are monolingual signs as well. Lüttich eg. By the way efforts are made to indicate both names. But it's political to sensitive at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There is a reason why the Dutch and French make fun of your country, but the Germans and Brits are joining in as well now. It's the truth.
Now, it's clichés.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Roadworks. When you do make an effort to do your roads up, it's au pair with congestion.
Sure, in other countries this is a nonexistence problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Germans have loads and loads of roadworks, but the traffic just drives through them.
Have you ever notice Belgian and especially Flemish roads are much busier than most German ones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Right in the summer months there was a lane closure for 25 km. That road is now one of the best roads in Belgium. But you didn't fix it. The Germans did.
What do you mean by that? A german contractor or what? What is that have to do with it? Do you really think Belgian company's can't build roads?

BTW: off course in the summer months. When do you expect us to do? In the winter months when everybody is working? In the summer months roads are calmer than in winter.

Last edited by De Klauw; September 17th, 2011 at 02:50 PM.
De Klauw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #1453
Jeroen669
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 787
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
When you approach sections where it's likely to be busy, the Belgians have put up a sign, with cruise control written on it with a red line crossed through. I've been told it's actually legislation to switch your cruise-controll off.
I always wondered how the police would be able to control this... I never switch off CC at those signs.
Jeroen669 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 03:14 PM   #1454
Jeroen669
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 787
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Klauw View Post
Have you ever been to Italy? Or your home country Austria known for the tiny letters? Belgian signage is perfect to find your way.
He says it's just amongst the worst in europe, which cannot be denied. But often, that's also just a problem of bad maintenance in general. The newer signs don't look that bad, actually.

Quote:
Like Belgium is the only country doing that. In France and Germany they are monolingual signs as well. Lüttich eg. By the way efforts are made to indicate both names.
The germans and the french also use the original names, with signs like "Lüttich (Ličge)" or "Gand (Gent)". The original names only would be sufficient enough, but at least they add them to the signs. How is someone from e.g. the Netherlands or Germany supposed to know where he's driving when he just sees places like Borgworm, Bergen or Rijsel (which isn't even a Belgian city!) ?? The language politics are causing a lot of confusion in that way. Maybe not that much for the belgians thereselves, since they tend to use those exonyms, but for foreigners they definately do.

Quote:
Sure, in other countries this is a nonexistence problem.
In germany, they just make the lanes that small that a 3-lane motorway still has 3 lanes. In the Netherlands, they often only work during nights and weekends on very busy stretches. And in France it's less a problem, because motorways (outside of Paris) have a bigger capacity. So it's not a non-existence problem in other countries, but it shows that Belgium roadworks maybe lack some efficiency...
Jeroen669 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 04:20 PM   #1455
lambersart2005
-le sudouest-
 
lambersart2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: FFM/MA/MTL
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 13

pleasse, austrian mayrhofen guy... what is your problem?? I think no one here said Belgium*s roads are the greatest on earth, and even if....
Obviously, the french-flemish place naming is quite confusing sometimes but so what

I love driving in Belgium and I love this country
lambersart2005 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #1456
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen669 View Post
The newer signs don't look that bad, actually.
What do you mean with "new"? The Flemish placed new motorway signage from 2001 onwards. I would consider that to be fairly new, but maintenance of those signs has also been outright bad.

Quote:
The germans and the french also use the original names, with signs like "Lüttich (Ličge)" or "Gand (Gent)".
Actually not. The French principle appears to be that the original name only appears where there is sufficient space on the sign next to the French exonym. If you take the references "Turin-Milan" on the A40, for one, you will not find the endonyms. Under the German rules, you have to take the endonym, and the German exonym is optional (intended for use only where there is a larger difference between endonym and German exonym, e.g. Wroclaw - Breslau). But there is a difference between rule and practice. You'll come across plenty of signs to Nimwegen and Arnheim.

But that is all close to nothing when compared to the way the Belgians handle things over their internal borders. It seems like Belgian road authorities assume a fairly big knowledge from their road users, including all the exonyms of all Belgian places. For many a Belgian it may be logical that all signs to Gerardsbergen change over to Grammont when you cross a provincial border, but for many foreigners it isn't. Coupled with the large differences between some endonyms and exonyms in Belgium and the large number of towns signposted over the internal border, you have to conclude that the exonym problem in Belgium is much larger than it is anywhere else in Europe. But well, we have to accept that Belgian road authorities are consistently giving the finger to users of their roads, and that most Belgians will defend their road authorities (except of course when you can bash on the road authorities of another region).
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs

Last edited by -Pino-; September 17th, 2011 at 06:39 PM.
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 11:23 PM   #1457
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Cruise control signs - another pointless form of regulation.
Which were first introduced in the motorway heaven called the Netherlands (EDIT: yep. Cruise control, not GPS, my bad) If it can prevent accidents, it's a fine addition according to me...

As for the rest of your post: another re-iteration of the discussions on the previous pages. It has all been dealt with, each item either accepted or proven wrong. So I'm not going to spend any more words on that. We still have a long way to go and sadly enough few politicians these days have decent knowledge about improving the traffic.

EDIT: -pino-: actually, on that point I haven't seen many people say they disagree on here. I'm all for signing towns in their official language(s), no matter where the sign is located. For practical reasons though, I could understand that Brussels remains signed in just the local language at that sign. Signing in two languages makes signs harder to read in my opinion. And Brussels is signed a lot. There's the option of adding brackets to get both languages (like I remember seeing a "Luxemb(o)urg" sign), but "Bru(x/ss)el(les)" isn't exactly very readable

Greetings,
Glodenox
__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.

Last edited by Glodenox; September 18th, 2011 at 12:55 PM.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 11:26 PM   #1458
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Which were first introduced in the motorway heaven called the Netherlands The signs don't enforce you to not use your GPS, but they're there to notify you that you shouldn't blindly follow the instructions that it will give you since the situation has changed there lately. If it can prevent accidents, it's a fine addition according to me...
It was about cruise control, not GPS.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #1459
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It was about cruise control, not GPS.
Ooh you're completely right, my bad. Oh well, my point about it possibly preventing accidents due to confused drivers still stands.

Greetings,
Glodenox
__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2011, 11:41 PM   #1460
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Ooh you're completely right, my bad. Oh well, my point about it possibly preventing accidents due to confused drivers still stands.

Greetings,
Glodenox
Proper matrix traffic management is the answer to that. Not the crap Belgians put on the roads.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autoroute, autoselweg, belgië, belgium, flanders, snelweg, vlaanderen, wallon, wallonia

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium