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Old July 30th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #161
hix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Kind of sad that you try to prove me wrong by attacking the Dutch signage, while I didn't compared it to it once.
Very sad indeed!

Is there any particular reason why I'm not allowed to compare the Dutch and the Belgian signage?

By the the way, I was under impression that it was you who said this:

Quote:
The signed destinations in the Netherlands differ from the Belgium signaged destinations, in the Netherlands
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Yeah, but why wouldn't it be the bottom numbers, like in nearly all other countries? In Belgium, anything is possible
I don't know why you feel attacked so easily. It was you who started this silly discussion after all.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 06:40 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
I never understand that. In theory, Belgium is one of the richest countries in Europe, but if you're driving through it, all you can think is: "My god what a mess". Everything looks neglected.
Isn't that a bit exaggerated?



And you get the countryside for free...
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Old July 30th, 2008, 07:29 PM   #163
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Isn't that a bit exaggerated?
Ofcourse the countryside is beautiful, but I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of throughfares of the country alone, I'm often in Belgium, and also often away from the motorway. For instance, I was in Houthalen and Helchteren sunday.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 07:57 PM   #164
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The pics are good tourist ads
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Old July 30th, 2008, 08:07 PM   #165
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Quote:
Isn't that a bit exaggerated?

Yes, we're often in Belgium too! More often than you Chriszwolle, I think, and we believe that you are exagerating. (And you have long toes aswell)

And I think that you as a mod should try not to bash Belgium somuch. I know that you think that you are the expert in motorways, but that gives you no right to do what you do.

You're reaction on my previous post was also over the top! Do you think that you have the right to compare when you like and than when other people respond to that you can start insulting them? And than you had the nerve to say that you never compared anything! That's indeed very sad of you!
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Old July 30th, 2008, 08:40 PM   #166
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Okay, some positive things about Belgium then:

* The underlying non-motorway-network is usually pretty well constructed, lots of 4 lane highways.
* Infrastructure of urban area's seems to be better in Belgium, like all those tunnels in Brussels and Liège.
* Speed limits make more sense than in the Netherlands
* More 2x3 motorways
* Road numbering makes more sense for non-motorways
* There are usually alternatives for motorways available in the form of N-roads. We lack that in the Netherlands.
* Road surface improved significantly on several motorways
* The landscape is much more attractive than in the Netherlands, especially in the Ardennes and NE Belgium.
* Housing is more affordable (border regions are full of Dutch).
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Old July 31st, 2008, 08:17 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hix View Post
It is clearly stated that you are on the R0 (Ringway 0) and that straight ahead leads to E19. I fail to see why you think this is not correct?
Beacuse in this system, you cannot see what the actual roadnumber is, straight ahead: Is it R0 (that is clear to me, it is!)? Is it E19? Or is it E40? Or is it both E19 or E40? That is a lack in the Belgian system.

In the Dutch system, in this case we should use brackets with the roadnumber in plain text to indicate an 'indirect' roadnumber, in this case it should be (E19)
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Last edited by Palance; July 31st, 2008 at 08:24 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 08:41 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
Beacuse in this system, you cannot see what the actual roadnumber is, straight ahead: Is it R0 (that is clear to me, it is!)? Is it E19? Or is it E40? Or is it both E19 or E40? That is a lack in the Belgian system.

In the Dutch system, in this case we should use brackets with the roadnumber in plain text to indicate an 'indirect' roadnumber, in this case it should be (E19)
No it is very clear that this road is R0 (In 's on top of the panel) and that the E40 and E19 are further away. I fail to see that this is not clear to you. It is not because you are used to the Dutch system and not to the Belgian system that you can say the Dutch system is clearer.
It is time that all european countries use the same roadsign system and the same european numbers.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 08:47 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hix View Post
No it is very clear that this road is R0 (In 's on top of the panel) and that the E40 and E19 are further away. I fail to see that this is not clear to you. It is not because you are used to the Dutch system and not to the Belgian system that you can say the Dutch system is clearer.
It is time that all european countries use the same roadsign system and the same european numbers.
The point here is that, as I already told, that you *cannot* see on which road you are: The E40 begins here at this intersection but the E19 is much further away. You cannot see which begins here and which is further away. The Belgian system fails in making a difference between (E-)roadnumers on which you are driving (or on which you will drive after the next exit) and (E-)roadnumbers which you will (probalby) meet after 5, 10 or 20 kilometres. That is not clear since both E19 and E40 are in the same layout.

that has nothing to do with the Dutch systeem: Almost every country in the world as a system where it is directly clear whether it is a 'direct' roadnumber or an 'indirect' roadnumber.

Example: the Dutch intersection Vaanplein: See the right sign: It is clear that you will proceed on the A15 direction Europoort and Hellevoetsluis, but also that you will need to drive on the N57 to Hellevoetsluis after some kilometres. And not from this point. (otherwise it shoud not have been between brackets but in black letters on yellow background).
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Old July 31st, 2008, 10:08 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
The point here is that, as I already told, that you *cannot* see on which road you are
No the point is, as I allready told , that it is VERY CLEARLY marked on witch road you are. It is on top of the panel where you can read "R0 Ring Brussel" Why dont you open your eyes before you make pedant remarks?

People who drive on the ring see immediately that they have to exit here for direction E40 Leuven and that straight ahead they stay on the ring direction E40 and E19 (Gent and Antwerpen) . This is much clearer than the Dutch system where you have to look for brackets. (what a silly idea)
I would like to see a sign on a ring motorway from a Dutch city. The signs there are VERY confusing indeed.

Last edited by hix; July 31st, 2008 at 10:33 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 10:59 AM   #171
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The R0 is clear, but not the E40 and E19.

Well, suppose you were a tourist from a far country, driving for the first time in Belgium. And you were driving on the R0 and approaching this sign. Suppose you don't know anything about the Belgian system.

Suppose so: Could you explain to me how I can see on which roadnumber I am driving after this intersection: E40 or E19. How can I immediately see which E-roadnumber is straight ahead *directly after* this intersection?

Suppose you were that tourist, please explain clearly to me which situation is straight ahead:

1 R0 and E19 directly ahead, direction to E40 (which is kilometres away)
2 R0 and E40 directly ahead, direction to E19 (which is kilometres away)
3 R0, E19 and E40 directly ahead, no signation to roadnumbers further away
4 R0 directly ahead, direction to E19 and E40 (which are kilometres away)

We both know that anser 2 is the correct one.
But now: Explain to me *how* a foreigner could see that directly from the signation.

You asked for a sign on a Dutch ring motorway:

Rotterdam:


Amsterdam:
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Old July 31st, 2008, 11:06 AM   #172
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For people who are not familiair with the situation, a small map:



Blue = E19
Red = E40
Green spot = location of the picture.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 11:14 AM   #173
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And you claim that this is more clear than the Belgian system? Thats ridiculous!

Quote:
We both know that anser 2 is the correct one.
But now: Explain to me *how* a foreigner could see that directly from the signation.
No we don't. I know something else. And that's that you are on the R0 and that people who go straight ahaid will go in the direction of Gent en Antwerpen (E40 and E19) en if you turn right you go to Leuven en Brussels (also E40)
How mmuch clearer can you get?

On the Brussels ring it is always clearly marked that you are on the R0 and what directions are straight ahead and what directions are at the exit.
So stop being silly and do something else, go play outside, the sun is shining.

Last edited by hix; July 31st, 2008 at 11:22 AM.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 11:14 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Ofcourse the countryside is beautiful, but I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of throughfares of the country alone, I'm often in Belgium, and also often away from the motorway. For instance, I was in Houthalen and Helchteren sunday.
So what's your point now? That Houthalen/Helchteren looked like a dump?
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Old July 31st, 2008, 11:51 AM   #175
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I dont understandt.

whats the sense in fighting with signs instead of buying a gps?
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Old July 31st, 2008, 12:45 PM   #176
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@Hix: It's a pity that you behave like a little child. The fact that you cannot do more than personal attacks convicnes me that I am correct in this disscussion. I can only give you advice to read more carefully. If you still don't understand the problem, please feel free to contact me in Dutch, so I can explain it better to your. very pity that you react in such a childish way. For me: discussion closed.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 01:52 PM   #177
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@ Palance:
Quite ridiculous to insult people and than say that the discussion is closed. it is clear that you are wrong and that you don't want to admit it. But by callling me childish, you will not win this discussion. (Do you always call people childish when they disagree with you? )
Maybe you can try to grow up and accept that you do not know everything better, and maybe admit that you are wrong sometimes?

In this case it was clear that your statement was wrong and I proved it. Accept this fact and stop weening like a baby.
And really, don't you have anything better to do than criticising the Belgian road signs? Get a life!
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Old July 31st, 2008, 04:15 PM   #178
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@ Patrick below: In Germany they're changing that, I saw signs with Arnhem and Nijmegen instead of Arnheim and Nimwegen. In the Netherlands, they changed it too at some spots, like Köln and Aachen instead of Keulen and Aken.

EDIT: Freaking server's unsynchronized again. My reply was for Patrick.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 04:18 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post

Yeah, they sign names like Anvers or Gand which are usually not displayed at maps. The really issue are all those translations, like Luik, Bergen, Courtrai, Bruges, Gand, Anvers, Maestricht, Aix-la-Chapelle etc. One sign it says Anvers, the next says Antwerp, how are non-Belgium travellers suppose to know those are the same?
yeah, signs should use the local names (but it's not unique to belgium, although there it is very bad: france should also sign saarbrücken and trier instead of sarrebruck and trèves; and germany should write bruxelles instead of brüssel and warszawa instead of warschau on its signs)
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Old July 31st, 2008, 04:35 PM   #180
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I believe there is a European rule that states that the original name has to be mentioned between brackets for foreign destinations. So in Germany you will have Lüttich (Liège).
In Belgium however Liège is not a foreign destination and so European rules do not apply. In Belgium the law says that roadsigns have to be in the language of the region. I believe this is indeed a stupid law that make roadsigns difficult to understand for foreigners.

But foreign destionations will be signed according to European regulations. So you will find Rijsel (Lille) or Cologne (Köln) on the motorways.
When Chriszwolle mentioned that, he tried to prove his point in our discussion about the E and A numbers in Belgium, while this has nothing to do with that discussion.
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