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Old June 19th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #4161
JackFrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
No matter how rich he is, those 27 tows in a few months would have been annoying enough to him, I'd think, to make him pay more attention to where he parks (or whatever he got towed for)....
i am sure he noticed just after his 27th tow what a big douchbag he is, which of course he didnt realize 26 (!) tows earlier...
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Old June 19th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #4162
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
To break law shouldn't be a privilege for rich people that can pay fines as we pay a coffee, but should be something that hit everybody in the same way since the law is the same for everybody (and hit offencers in the same way)

About him, he solved the problem hiring a driver.
But it's simple.
On repeated offenses, just give the driver a ban.
But offenses like speeding 10kmh are just ridiculous.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #4163
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So if poor people break the law, it's less of an offense just because they're poor? The rules are the same for everyone, why not the fines?
I think we should define more precisely what is the meaning of fines

The concept behind fines can be divided in two branches:
- Payback: repaying the society for the damage one has made by breaking that specific rule
- Punishment: playing as a deterrent for who gets one, since it's pretty well known that everyone's most sensible organ is the money pocket

I think that in a fair system the two parts should be calculated separately.
The first should be the same for everyone, with the amount based on the danger the violation implied. Danger that has a precise economic value and the aim is to collect money to repay a debt, no matter how poor or rich one is (a damage is a damage).

The second should be proportional to one's earnings, because the aim is to make the punishment being "felt".
The point is that to make it feel like a punishment money is not the aim but the instrument, so the important parameter is not the amount itself but how much the loss hurts you.
Another part of the instrument are driving bans, which should not be based on income, since time is the same for everyone.

I think this is not "letting the poors get away with murder" but trying to give everyone the same "Jesus Christ, I'll think twice next time" effect



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
then why not start introducing variable housing prices, variable VAT, variable tolls, variable telephone rates...
Actually in free markets all those things are already variable
Housing prices vary upon size/location/luxury of the house.
The VAT is a percentage, so it varies upon the value of the object.
Tolls vary upon the size of the vehicle, calculated on how much it wears the infrastructure.
Telephone rates vary upon how much you choose to use the phone... and so on.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #4164
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So I don't think a "high income surcharge" will really do anything to improve traffic safety. The majority of the major offenses are not handled through fines, but by the suspension of the driver's license or impounded vehicles, which will hit the rich just as much as the poor.
In Italy, due privacy, can't be photographed the driver. When you get the fine at home, you have to indicate who was driving (especially in the case you lose points or u get a suspension of the driver's license). If you don't indicate who was driving, you must pay double the fine (example the fine is 500 €, if you don't indicate the driver you'll pay 1000€). So here you have why rich people aren't hitted the same, is enough to pay and you'll be always saved. A normal people instead must chose if get a suspension or don't eat for a month.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 09:25 PM   #4165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

In Italy, due privacy, can't be photographed the driver. When you get the fine at home, you have to indicate who was driving (especially in the case you lose points or u get a suspension of the driver's license). If you don't indicate who was driving, you must pay double the fine (example the fine is 500 EUR, if you don't indicate the driver you'll pay 1000EUR). So here you have why rich people aren't hitted the same, is enough to pay and you'll be always saved. A normal people instead must chose if get a suspension or don't eat for a month.
It would be easier to fix the privacy law and allow photigraphing faces. And fines should be proportional to income especially for violations that don't imply loss of points or suspension of driving licence, like parking violation. For bigger violations, suspension of d.l. and decurtation of points are far more feared than monetary losses and are already equal to everybody.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #4166
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It would be easier to fix the privacy law and allow photigraphing faces.
It was like this in past, but then, when somebody with power and money got at home the pic of him and a sensuous woman next to him in car and he had to explain who she was to his wife, this law changed......
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Old June 19th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #4167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

It was like this in past, but then, when somebody with power and money got at home the pic of him and a sensuous woman next to him in car and he had to explain who she was to his wife, this law changed......
Just blur the face of the passenger and show only the driver... so easy...
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 10:05 PM   #4168
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Just blur the face of the passenger and show only the driver... so easy...
Easy to say, not to do. Otherwise it would be already done. Think that radar controls or cameras must be indicated before, otherwise the fine is not worth...pretty ridiculous
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Old June 19th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #4169
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They are now many low emission zones in Italy and in Germany.
In Germany you have to stick a green vignette depending on the emission of your vehicle to have access to all "Umwelt Zone". It's 40 Euro fine, if you don't have it.
In Italy, it's quite unclear, you have the ZTL zone. I know that some are used as a congestion charge (per ex. in Milan), while other are banned zones and tickets are very expensive - 115 Euro or so. So which vehicle can go through without being fined?

Also, It's have been said that these zones are huge tax incomes for some Italian municipalities.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #4170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

Easy to say, not to do. Otherwise it would be already done. Think that radar controls or cameras must be indicated before, otherwise the fine is not worth...pretty ridiculous
That's because the official aim of speed traps is to prevent people to drive fast thus increasing safety and not to catch the biggest number possible of violators. However unfortunately the real aim is get money.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #4171
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Originally Posted by Easy driver View Post
They are now many low emission zones in Italy and in Germany.
In Germany you have to stick a green vignette depending on the emission of your vehicle to have access to all "Umwelt Zone". It's 40 Euro fine, if you don't have it.
In Italy, it's quite unclear, you have the ZTL zone. I know that some are used as a congestion charge (per ex. in Milan), while other are banned zones and tickets are very expensive - 115 Euro or so. So which vehicle can go through without being fined?

Also, It's have been said that these zones are huge tax incomes for some Italian municipalities.
In Milan you pay 5 euro everytime you enter in the ZTL zone. Even if you are resident. in Germany 5 euro for the sticker and it's worth for the whole Germany. Concerning ZTL here, it's pretty complicated....exceptions are displayed in the integrative panel, but for to read it you should stop your car under it cause sometimes is written so little and very confusing. Usually they are allowed residents, police vehicles, ambulances and trucks for delivery in some range of times.

EDIT: an example of integrative panel


it means: access forbbiden:
_all vehicles petrol/diesel euro 0-1-2
_out province PA (It should be Palermo, but I doubt really what it means)
Allowed:
_residents in ZTL A
_authorized by O.S. (No idea what is)
Exceptions vehicles < 3,5t.
10.00-12.00
13.00-16.00
20.00-07,00

Sorry of the OT

Last edited by Satyricon84; June 19th, 2012 at 11:11 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:02 AM   #4172
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People... this used to be the German Autobahn topic
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #4173
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
So if poor people break the law, it's less of an offense just because they're poor? The rules are the same for everyone, why not the fines?
Fines are supposed to be a deterrent, so having them tied to the income and net worth of a person most definitely makes logical sense.

All fines should have a minimum that then scales based on the model and category of the car (e.x. a luxury sports car should be at the upper end). The 3rd fine in a 12 month period should have a surcharge based on the drivers income and net worth, same for the 4th. The 5th then should include a 3 month driving ban without resetting the clock, at that point the only way to reset it should be to go 12 months without a violation. The 6th should include a 6month driving ban, the 7th a 9 month driving ban, the 8th a 12month driving ban and the 9th a 24 month driving ban. the 10th should then include criminal charges and a life time driving ban. At some point a patter of violations no matter how minor become criminal in their nature with their conscious and clear disregard for the courts and the laws.

Fair to me and really there is no reason for a person to even get to 3 within a rolling 12 month period, above that the punishments should get harsh and make everyone hurt no matter how wealthy they are.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #4174
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem is that the vast majority of offenses which are handled through fines are for speeding and parking. Speeding fines issued are chiefly on revenue locations rather than actual black spots and parking fines are an annoyance, but rarely a real danger to traffic safety.
So I don't think a "high income surcharge" will really do anything to improve traffic safety. The majority of the major offenses are not handled through fines, but by the suspension of the driver's license or impounded vehicles, which will hit the rich just as much as the poor.

By varying fines you'll end up with a system where the poor pay the current fines and the middle- and upper classes pay fines that are out of proportion in relation to the offense (as some fines already are).
Kind of like this incident last year in my town with 13 kids ALL UNDER AGE OF 21 got a $196 ticket each (120euro or so) and a few dollars in towing fees for street racing.

These were each one of their cars.
2007 Ferrari 599
2010 Lamborghini Gallardo
2010 Lamborghini Gallardo
2009 Lamborghini Gallardo
2009 Audi R8
2012 Nissan GT-R
2010 Nissan GT-R
2010 Nissan GT-R
2010 Maserati Turismo
2010 Maserati Turismo
2011 Mercedes SL63
2011 Mercedes SLS
2005 Aston Martin DB9

Meanwhile they all left smiling and one was even pulled over the next day in another luxury car. I love your logic and im sure these kids learned a lesson. (I live in the money laundering capital of Chinese money by the way).
http://www.burnaby-bc.ca/News/?NID=28

/sorry if this is getting off topic but this particular subject I feel passionately about because there are lots of extremely wealthy and careless kids where I live who taunt the system.

Last edited by alesmarv; June 20th, 2012 at 12:49 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #4175
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Impound their cars or suspend their driver's license. € 120 for something like illegal street racing is a laughable fine, even if you don't have a high income. Typical example of cash-cowing instead of doing something real about the problem.

It always surprises me what kind of big deal people make about the Ballotelli's and other 0.00001% of the population.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #4176
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Impound their cars or suspend their driver's license. € 120 for something like illegal street racing is a laughable fine, even if you don't have a high income. Typical example of cash-cowing instead of doing something real about the problem.

It always surprises me what kind of big deal people make about the Ballotelli's and other 0.00001% of the population.
Wont make a difference as they generally have other foreign licenses and if not then its just a matter of a phone call and they have other cars to use. On top of that they have no roots here as they fly around the world, if you really get on their case and inconvenience them here they will shuffle of to somewhere else for a while. One of them at that scene even asked to have his car towed to his house latter on as he was flying out of the country on the same day.

Your logic simply doesn't work in the real world. At-least not where lots of people have lots of real money and can feed of each other (especially kids).

By the way your 0.00001% number makes no sense, more like 10%. I spend lots of time in Europe of and on, almost every year (2months last fall) and although there is not as much money there as there is where I specifically live there is still way more obscenely rich people then you are implying.

Last edited by alesmarv; June 20th, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:06 PM   #4177
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Hefty fines are really not going to change the super rich 0.0001%. A current fine for significant speeding in Germany for a normal income is like 10% of their monthly income and a point on their license. Do you think that the super rich care if they're fined € 100.000 on their € 1 million income? I don't think so. Monetary sanctions don't work with such people, that's where other measures like suspension of licenses, impounding of cars or even imprisonment come in.

Again; I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the 0.0001% that can get away with everything. That's just the way of life, some people are more fortunate than others. Fining or taxing them isn't going to change that (also see the recent bonus scandals of bankers).
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #4178
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
then why not start introducing variable housing prices,
What do you mean? If you can't afford a big house, you buy it small, or outside towns. They do cost less.

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variable VAT, variable tolls, variable telephone rates... Really, it's just petty jealousy that people can afford to get many fines. Has it ever been proven traffic safety degrades because the 0.1% can afford just about any fine?
Because fines are punishment. The others are not. Pretty big difference.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #4179
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

Again; I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the 0.0001% that can get away with everything. That's just the way of life, some people are more fortunate than others. Fining or taxing them isn't going to change that (also see the recent bonus scandals of bankers).
So why to pay taxes according to your income? Let's pay all the same, no matter if you earn 1.000 or 1.000.0000 no?
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Old June 20th, 2012, 01:14 PM   #4180
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There are ample examples of flat-taxes.
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